hydrogen needs loads of power to cenvert water to hydrogen. plus the problem is filling is not as easy plus the hydrogen tanks in carsare like bombs if not protected to its maximum on a potential crash. cars drive since the early 90s in the usa and spain some with fuelcells some with modified piston engines. Mercedes was going to mass produce the hydrogen powerd fuelcell in 2004. its why the A-class has a holow floor , it was designed for its fuelcell under the floor. never happened as we all know the A-class fell over in elch test.
intrade,
Sep 29, 10:03am
you know that mexico drives on alcohol since a long time and cars that can drive puree10 fuel can also run on alcohol.
jason18,
Sep 29, 10:05am
1 for the car 2 for me,
skin1235,
Sep 29, 10:28am
cheapest most efficient way to produce hydrogen is - crack petrol, 1/4 the cost of cracking water still get less km's from the same lt of hydrogen than you get from the lt of petrol though then there is the transport/storage issues that intrade has alluded to unless they can find a way to produce it cheaply, and control that method, it ain't gonna happen - and its the control that is the issue control is also a big part of why alcohol is made out to be very difficult and dangerous - the producers do not us to realise that sugarbeet will ferment on it's own without us having to pay the producers anything before we filter the result and pour it into the fuel tank their manufacturing market share and profit, plus their distribution chain would be a huge bottomless money pit if we woke up not saying it is a simple solution but is certainly doable by joe bloggs at home with a bit of planning and organising of a supply of raw ingrediants
cuda.340,
Sep 29, 10:31am
i have a friend who has successfully managed to run his BMW & his Commodore on hydrogen. so far it's an ecconomy thing as he has to change over to petrol for the big hills & initial start up. but his fuel bill for the commodore has dropped to $20 per week & it covers 400kms in that week. pretty bliidy good if you ask me. his biggest problem is the integrity of the water container, he's still designing one that will not disintegrate over time.
NZTools,
Sep 29, 10:35am
Let me guess. He makes his own hydrogen while he is driving along the road!
skin1235,
Sep 29, 10:40am
good on him cuda, once you get them working the systems are a huge boost to economy onroad running it as an assist, and only on light load is where he is saving - high load circumstances and he'll have internal issues - rings and valves etc he obviously has retuned the computer in some way - both of those are injected and control by ecu
vulcanised rubber insert for the tube or container may help - hydrogen embrittlement can't happen if it isn't in intimate contact with the product
skin1235,
Sep 29, 10:45am
it is doable, there are times each trip when there is obviously an imbalance but having the petrol for high load allows a surplus which can be accumulated ( batteries ) the fuel cost above doesn't actually tell the picture, what cost the extra batteries, and their shortened life value, what did it cost to develop and fit, and get working to what he has today
your all in dream land, hydrogen in car is not the way to go. just as steam cars have fallen by the way side.producer gas,alcohol, ( fermenting cellulose with streptococci bacteria / yeast combinations )and oil from algae are the most promising technologies at the moment
elect70,
Sep 29, 1:27pm
Couldturn ourcoal that no 1 wants to buy into oil . SA did it& got itdown toreasonablke cost & efficiencyChina has a couple of plantstoo, theyhad itatequivelent of $70barrel , but thelarge CO2 emmissions wouldhavegreens put the kybosh on it . Isthe methanexgas to gasolineplantstill operating !
the-lada-dude,
Sep 29, 2:13pm
in nz, pretty sure no, bloody shame really as methane to methanol is easilt do able which i think was the first reaction at the plant they built in taranaki
gsimpson,
Sep 29, 4:50pm
and defying the laws of thermodynamics while doing it.
cuda.340,
Sep 29, 4:58pm
actually yes, both his cars have a water reservior in the engine bay that has some kind of plate system in it. the pulsing of the plates somehow releases the hydrogen from the water which has some fandangled valve hooked into the manifold. dont ask me how it works but i've been for a ride & the engine note changes a bit when you're on the hydrogen & the car cruises along fine.
natedg1,
Sep 29, 5:09pm
So who does his wofs for him! As far as i understand that the underbonnet systems are illegal here in NZ and are a fail under our laws.
cuda.340 wrote: actually yes, both his cars have a water reservior in the engine bay that has some kind of plate system in it. the pulsing of the plates somehow releases the hydrogen from the water which has some fandangled valve hooked into the manifold. dont ask me how it works but i've been for a ride & the engine note changes a bit when you're on the hydrogen & the car cruises along fine.[/quote
I dont need to ask you how it works. It is a simple browns gas generator. The problem is, it has been proven time and time again that the energy required to make the gas (ie electricity) is more than the energy gained from the gas it produced. (basic laws of physics at work here) Dont forget the load on the battery caused by the gas generator means increased load on the altenator which means increased load on the engine which means increased feul consumption.
The noticable increase in economy he has achived, is because he is now concious of his driving habits, and as he his trying to save fuel, is being a lot lighter on the loud pedal
NZTools,
Sep 29, 5:56pm
If you want to test it, get a portable generator, hook it up to a couple of 500 watt floodlights to put a load on it, put exactly one litre of fuel in the tank, fire it up and start the stopwatch. Record the exact time it takes before it runs out of fuel. Now do the same test again, but with the gas generator connected to the inlet manifold, and powered by the 12v circuit. If it does indeed save fuel, the generator will run for longer than it did without the gas generator. I however will bet my left nut that the extra load greated by powering the generator and subsequent increase in fuel consumption, will overcome any savings the gas generated will make.
skin1235,
Sep 29, 6:05pm
he has mentioned pulses nzt, sounds like he may have a sparks unit the argument re basic laws is valid but be sure you are actually arguing apples against apples, under low load the kw required to produce browns gas in a simple converter is not very high - there is not a great demand for fuel in a low load situation, to deliver that gas is perhaps equivalent to running at 900rpm - something the engine is going to do anyway, and 900 rpm may actually be lower than road speed would demand to argue that he would need to burn even more petrol than before is notcompletely correct, in the low load period his alt would normally be off ( regulator)to turn it on he could use the air con, or the browns gas converter, your argument assumes he would have to increase the accelerator to compensate but in actual he will decrease it even further due to the burn of the gas this doesn't contradict the thermal laws either but points out the extra energy required is not coming from fuel at that time, it comes from the battery storage as well
sr2,
Sep 29, 7:23pm
No offence intended but unless you mate has discovered a silver bullet that the combined might of the automotive industry to date has failed to find his solution is rubbish!
les37,
Sep 29, 7:44pm
cuda.340 wrote: i have a friend who has successfully managed to run his BMW & his Commodore on hydrogen. so far it's an ecconomy thing as he has to change over to petrol for the big hills & initial start up. but his fuel bill for the commodore has dropped to $20 per week & it covers 400kms in that week. pretty bliidy good if you ask me. his biggest problem is the integrity of the water container, he's still designing one that will not disintegrate over time.[/quote ]use septone rust neutriliser(supercheap autos) instead of baking soda,makes more hydrogen and uses less amps and water stays clean,trial and error for amount to mix with water.
NZTools,
Sep 29, 7:45pm
Even under low load, the altenater still requires energy to charge the battery. this comes from fuel. Saying the power comes from the battery is a moot point, as the battery is still charged by burning fuel. Now if he had some flash system that ensured the battery was only ever charged on decel, then there might be a tiny bit of a saving, but the cost of that would negate any savings. You cannot beat physics. the energy gained from burning a fuel of any type, will never be as much as the energy consumed to create the fuel. Also, ever time energy changes form, there is a loss. It is symply impossible to use a cars charging system to create enough browns gas to save on petrol, as you are increasing your petrol consumption to create the browns gas. Prove me wrong, and you have invented perpetual motion.
sr2,
Sep 29, 8:23pm
+1.Thank you for posting a small breath of sanity in a world full of spin doctors who appear to have never even mastered fifth form physics!
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