to do the paperwork for a roll cage!How come it has been 4 weeks so far - and this guy is supposed to be the preferred local!
Vacancy - qualified engineer able to do the calcs/paperwork required for roll cages.
Not sure of the qualifications required but I'm not the only one who would really like to know!
mgmad,
Nov 30, 5:34pm
Four weeks is a bit of a long time. Really, if they have the requirements and the material specs it shouldn't take long at all. The only hold up might be getting material data, but that should really not be too hard. The Motorsport Manual basically tells you what they want you to look at, it shouldn't be a difficult job.
Qualifications a BE is sufficient, whether MSNZ accepts diploma qualified engineers calcs I don't know. You could try contacting the University - the Formula SAE team might have someone who's willing to help, although those guys are usually undergrad students worth seeing if that'll do MSNZ as those guys should be able to do the calcs, and will be the most interested, normally.
cuda.340,
Nov 30, 5:59pm
wow, paperwork for a cage! i built my own cage & it has past tech for 9 years & the only paperwork on the job was when i dried my hands after washing them at the end of the job. glad my cage is only for dragracing.
mgmad,
Nov 30, 7:44pm
MSNZ have changed their regs again, so a lot of cages would now not pass their requirements. Cages that had already been homologated are ok, but in socrams case his was built to the regs but not finally homologated (right socram!). MSNZ has a list of basic designs you can follow, or you can design your own so long as it will meet certain design impact loads which are set out in the Manual. This is where the calcs come in.
falcon15,
Dec 1, 7:06am
I built my cage recently. It takes all of about 30 mins to fill out the paperwork. You send in the form with all the photos and i had my log book and homologation sticker within two days. If the guy builds cages for a living he may be registered with MANS as a autorised cage builder. Approved builders dont need to fill out the paper work just sign a form to say its built to spec and it gets homologated.
fordcrzy,
Dec 1, 7:46am
theres a difference betwen drag cages and MSNZ cages. As long as you build them to the guidlines, you can fill the paperwork yourself. just take photos of the welds and bottom plates BEFORE painting the cage.
mrfxit,
Dec 1, 10:30am
Good grief, even with doing all the paper work AFTER build, it should only take a day to measure/draw plan/ photo cage & joints/ hunt up pipe spec's off the net & SIGN the blasted thing.
The inspector should know just by eyeballing the job if it's going to be a pass/ no pass or need more details & base the paperwork time on that as an estimate.
After all said & done, the inspector is employed to do that job because 'he's the expert" . yes! . no!
elect70,
Dec 1, 2:03pm
.Theregs for your class willgive you all need to knowso adesign seemsunnecessaryjusttake it to theconstructor .Graham Berry used to build them before breakfast, a full chassis for dragster took a little longer .
socram,
Dec 1, 2:45pm
As MGmad points out, the cage was built to MSNZ specs before they changed.Photographs were supplied to MSNZ pre painting as required, years ago, and all was then OK.Because the main hoop specification requirement has now changed, then a cage that was not homologated before the changes (in other words, the paperwork wasn't submitted) either needs modifying (impractical as the car has now been painted and trimmed), or an engineers report is required.All details have been supplied, complete with an isometric drawing with measurements.
The fact that older cages that are still around and are still legal, but a new cage built to those same regs is not, is just unfortunate.MSNZ therefore will not pass the cage, unless an engineer's report is submitted.Equally, they cannot issue the logbook, with authority card for harness seat belts either, so until that procedure is followed and completed, the car cannot be certified, nor complianced, nor Wof'd nor registered for road use.
The 28 pages for LVVTA, plus working drawings for the modified front suspension and a committee that apparently only meets once a month is going to be another one to two months delay.
So those of you who have legal cages in your road cars, built to the old regs or have cars modified before the various rules changed (and keep changing), just be grateful.
Just so that you know what the change is that causes all of this, it is only to the metal specs for the main hoop.The fact that it is a road car and the only reason for a cage at all is future proofing - just in case someone wants to Targa it - or I decide to race it because old age means getting in and out of the GT is getting physically difficult!
It appears that adding safety in any form is virtually more trouble than it is worth these days, as I could strip the front bars out and the car is totally legal with just the existing rear hoop and back stays, as that does not have to be homologated at all.
socram,
Dec 3, 8:40pm
Oh boy.You should see what the engineer has proposed.I'll post a couple of pics tomorrow. I have decided that rather than rip any part of the cage out, at this stage, if I remove the full harness belts and fit lap and diagonal belts, there is no reason why the LV certification can't go ahead, as it doesn't then need an authority card or an MSNZ logbook.But, I have been told so much different stuff from so many people, I am not sure that some understand the system requirements at all.
elect70,
Dec 4, 7:42am
How do they justifythis beauracratic nonsenseWhen was last time arace or rally driver sufferedserious injuries as a result ofroll cagefailure , I bet they cant .!even in my trade they are constantly rewritingthe rulesbutdont tellyou , its up touser to find outor be prosecuted to the maxfor any failure to comply
Install lap & diagonal - though with a 1956 shell, I am not sure that belts are even required!If I want to do anything other than a clubsport event though.
A total farce and I am itching to get Fair Go involved.
My solution! Take out the full harness belts.Install lap & diagonal - though with a 1956 shell, I am not sure that belts are even required. Car then no longer needs an authority card and the cage is immaterial.If I want to do anything other than a clubsport event though.
A total farce and I am itching to get Fair Go involved.
smac,
Dec 4, 8:01am
I'd be very very surprised if MSNZ couldn't tell you exactly when the last time an injury occurred because of roll protection failure or fitment. It happens.
socram,
Dec 4, 8:05am
The bars to the side and front of the driver are above windscreen and door apertures and can be inside the headlining, therefore 'do not intrude into the passenger compartment'.The bars following the line of the A pillar can also be capped.
smac,
Dec 4, 8:11am
Righto. So they want 7 new bars. What is this thing anyway! Those measurements are smaller than a mini.
You know what! Here's my 10c.the bureaucracy is a bitch, and it will be hassle and cost to sort it, BUT in my personal experience when I have skimped on projects, parts or modifications for financial reasons I have nearly always regretted it. I have always thought later "if only I'd just done it.". You only live once, you've come this far, you may as well end up with the toy you've been planning to get , otherwise every single time you get into it you'll notice that missing bit of the shine.
Good luck getting it sorted, whichever way you go.
bill-robinson,
Dec 4, 8:14am
I feel for you socram. I think the lvvta has lost its purpose and is now concerned with making regulations. It should be interpreting proposed regs and trying to get balance between proposed laws and individual car builders.
bill-robinson,
Dec 4, 8:22am
sorry socram but rememberNILS CARBORUNDUN the only way to fly bill
socram,
Dec 4, 8:22am
Thanks for the above.smac, the car only has a cage for a bit of extra protection. It is not a full out race car capable of high speeds nor is it ever likely to be used in anything other than gentlemanly racing.I haven't skimped on the rest of the project but that bit of extra protection is enough for peace of mind.Car weighs less than 1300kgs.
This is initially through MSNZ and the LVVTA is another can of worms - more of that later.
smac,
Dec 4, 9:01am
Hmmm.in my experience there is no such thing. When the green flag waves the red mist descends and it's all on. Some of the worst wrecks I've seen have been at classic meets with 50's and 60's cars tootling around at road speed. The extent of the risk and the extent of the damage are out of your hands; it's up to the maniac you are racing against.
socram,
Dec 4, 2:15pm
As I am the convenor for the series I normally run in, driving standards have always been high!We warn drivers first if they are misbehaving, followed by a suspension or permanent ban.As an invitation series, we have the legal right to withdraw that invitation at any time.
I have been the convenor now for 17 years, so I have a pretty good idea as to what it is like out there and who I am racing against.Having said that, this project is not my primary race car anyway.It has been built as a tow car but with the ability to do a bit of track work if required.
smac,
Dec 4, 2:16pm
WHAT IS IT!
I don't think you've ever answered!
socram,
Dec 5, 4:24pm
You'll find out all in good time smac - but it does now sport Mini headlamps!What the car actually is is not relevant to this thread, but those who know me, know all too well what it is!
The interesting part now is that some of the cage designs approved by MSNZ, would fail the same tests that are demanded of a freeform cage.
So IF my cage had the thicker tube for the main hoop as required by the new rules, it would be passed and homologated without any problem whatever.However, if it was subjected to the test requirements, it would fail. I just think this is a total shambles.Bad technical management by our controlling body no matter how you look at it.
trader_84,
Dec 5, 5:39pm
I reckon this too.
smac,
Dec 5, 7:36pm
You expect anything less from MSNZ! Sadly, they lost their way a long time ago.
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