SR2- So one organisation or the other is lying. all this hoo haa either the cars are safe to be on the road or they aren't The LVVTA has a list of faults with the vehicles so it can't be difficult to view the faults and see if they are or aren't legit.
sr2,
Sep 16, 1:12pm
Shh. you're making far too much sense mate! I'm at a loss as to what the issue was in the first place. It's sad to see a bunch of innovative Kiwi's having to take such a great idea off shore.
mrfxit,
Sep 16, 1:44pm
This is a part that you don't want to read in a hurry . >>
"Loosely, then, the NZTA review of the LVV includes a review of the LVVTA, because the NZTA is largely responsible for how the LVV works and what the LVVTA does.
So what is LVV? In a nutshell, it is a process put in place by the LVVTA and NZTA which vehicle certifiers follow. The LVVTA trains and monitors the certifiers; the NZTA appoints the certifiers. The LVVTA? It was set up by the NZTA in the late 1990s to approve for use on NZ roads ???home-built??
mainlander05,
Sep 16, 2:38pm
Well I'm stuffed as to my mates t bucket gets a warrant. 700hp.and held together by a few zipp ties,well nearly.I won't go in it at all. So someone isn't doing their job right.
sr2,
Sep 16, 3:15pm
Sad part of the story is that not only is an ex Kiwi company now based in France, their modifications (failed in NZ) have passed strict European standards with flying colors and the the French Government has even given them a grant of 400,000 Euro for starting up in their country!
Do you get the feeling our cert system is broken?
whqqsh,
Sep 16, 3:26pm
heard the same, that one is sad. for other cars & situations though the hard part is if you comment & upset 'someone' woe betide getting a car on the road. Its already an old mates whiskey club as it is. Ive known a few very clever & well qualified guys that haven't even been replied to when applying to be a certifier
saxman99,
Sep 16, 4:25pm
I can't help thinking if I was one of the owners affected by this nonsense I would just continue to drive the car and to hell with the consequences.
socram,
Sep 16, 5:23pm
Having had a three year drama getting my car through, even though a Certifier was involved from the bare shell stage, (2005) my finger pointing would be at the certifier who cost me an extra several thousand dollars, (the suspension design he was involved in was a total flop and failed the LVVTA standards by a country mile) endless delays (8 months just to get the modified parcel shelf - that he'd overlooked - signed off, after the compliance fail), sloppy paperwork and a 'to do list' that was incomplete yet kept changing - and never a mention of their bible, the "Hobby Car Manual" or an application for a design spec, until the car was basically done (someone else had told me about the HCM, but he hadn't mentioned it. ).
I hope 'kellrae' sees this, as she was caught up in the Yeti saga. If I could afford it, I would be suing the certifier, but the system and procedures need a total overhaul.
If a brand new mass produced Commodore would fail their requirements for bumpsteer, how come my project car needed to reach a much tougher figure?
sr2,
Sep 16, 6:34pm
Socram mate, I was waiting for your reply.
IMO you got right royally screwed over by a bunch of self-serving "experts" who have far too much time on their hands. These ???experts??? are easily identified by their sharing of a pathological desire to justify their own meager existences through using impressively long words, inventing regulations and certifications and forming committees to invent even more regulations and certifications!
Edited to point out that none of these afore mentioned individuals will ever accept responsibility for any decision they make!
gsimpson,
Sep 16, 6:46pm
The hotrod certifiers are not interested in helping anyone producing something that is not a "hotrod"
franc123,
Sep 16, 7:21pm
Why the surprise? NZ Govt departments and the unaccountable minions below them are masters at stifling innovation and have been for decades. LVVTA is certainly an old boys hotrodders club littered with technically questionable credentials, it needs total overhaul. The ones that have been off the daily tools for decades and know jack s#*t about modern cars and wouldn't know a clockspring from a yaw rate sensor because they've never worked on them and still get a little confused with metric spanners need getting rid of for a start. And WTF is a Hobby Car Manual? It sounds like a piece of American enthusiast light reading, surely its not used as an official guideline?
ducatiss,
Sep 16, 7:44pm
I have a bit of background info on this case as one of my family members was the one who had his new Skoda vehicle ordered off the road (after previously gaining certification and wof. The maker I believe ended up having to ship vehicles to France and have the crash tested before LVVTA would ok them. The LVVTA were total #$%^ to deal with as I understand it.
socram,
Sep 16, 8:33pm
It is their 'bible' which is about $200, is a (thick) loose leaf folder that is apparently updated faster than the Certifiers can keep up with it, let alone those workshops trying to work on cars and get them to conform to it!
No-one (and I do mean no-one) I dealt with in the ten years I was having work done on the car, by several different workshops, knew anything about it's existence until we'd theoretically finished! Ditto the design application procedure. But of course, one highly qualified engineer who effectively took three years to finish things off to the required standard, had to invest in a copy of the manual.
It is a daunting tome with such gems as the location of the attachment points for the seat belt mountings into a roll bar that takes no account of the height of the driver, or the relationship between roll bar and seat.
The requirements set by LVVTA also take no account of the professional opinion of race engineers or fabricators with extensive experience, nor the certifiers themselves, who, regardless of my own experience, see themselves at times as nothing more than glorified photographers.
There are chronic systemic weaknesses overall and as pointed out by others, despite their mission statement, they do not seem to be supportive of those building or modifying cars, but appear to be a hindrance and it is a development that came 100% via the Hot Rod side of motoring rather than the competition or race side.
whqqsh,
Sep 16, 10:32pm
However, and Ive been told this by a few people in the know, the certifiers aren't fully to blame. The photos they take are part of the process of LVVTA & gets sent to LTSA who have the final say, so the certifier will tell you what to do according to his understanding of the bible, take photos before & after of the work done, give it the tick, tell you it's ok only to have some pencil neck in Welly view the photos & disagree, sending the cert guy back to get the customer to redo various work. I have heard of them picking up on something in the photo periphery that isn't the actual subject that they don't like, has been explained it's an unmodified factory part or fitment yet they won't back down & want it replaced, crack tested etc, causing more hassle for the certifier & the customer
socram,
Sep 17, 8:30am
I have one guy who was considering applying to be a certifier but made it quite clear that if he was satisfied with the overall quality of the workmanship - even adherence to the HCM, he didn't expect to be overruled by someone who had not even sighted the item.
Needless to say, he isn't a certifier.
Post #16 also rings a few bells.
kazbanz,
Sep 17, 10:49am
hang on a minute though guys. Im hearing you guys load and clear. Im NOT a vehicle structural engineer or a LVV guy etc. But when the issues with the Yeti modifications came up I took a keen interest. There did seem to be some MAJOR design flaws that were downright dangerous. Im not talking in a crash but in everyday use that would eventually cause a crash. The manufacturer refused to accept that the issue existed. We don't know if the changes required by LVV were incorporated into the French manufactured cars.
ducatiss,
Sep 17, 7:50pm
I would be very keen to know what those design flaws are - as some of my family members are now driving around in their NZ built Yeti after it was cleared by LVVTA and given its WoF etc. Let us know so that I can pass it on to them.
Thanks for the links, sobering reading to say the least.
The LVVTA has become a self serving group who's primary agenda appears to be justifying their own existence while taking no responsibility for any of their actions.
franc123,
Sep 17, 9:10pm
This is going to get REAL interesting once the outcome of the French crashtesting is known.
kazbanz,
Sep 18, 5:44am
That depends though doesn't it ? If the manufacturer is intelligent (which clearly he is ) he will have taken on board every single issue to see if it is real or not. If it is a real issue you can bet he's worked out a practical solution. I really feel my first post covers it off. --either A LVVTA are being bloody minded or B the vehicles are (were?) actually unsafe in a significant way.
I have a family member who uses a vehicle modified to take a wheelchair, although not documented the information I've heard is that the same modifications passed the more stringent European regulations and crash testing, (one would presume they use industry standards slightly more sophisticated than a "Hobby Car Manual").
I suspect we'll never know the truth; the LVVTA has a long history of lack of transparency, I'd imagine they have already closed ranks and are in damage control mode.
kazbanz,
Sep 18, 6:54am
Sr2-- matey-For a second lets assume we live in that airy fairy perfect world that a lot of people seem to live in. You have two people talking to you one has only one job and that's to ensure you are safe. the second is trying to sell you and 10 of your friends a $90000 product. which person has the most reason to lie?
That there really is my problem with this saga. I struggle to comprehend why the LVVTA would be bloody minded about faults found. Then again we don't live in an airy fairy world--our world is full of hidden agendas ,ego's and all sorts of side stories the world never gets to hear about.
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