Put it context of the number of drivers that's global so what percentage are you talking, so small it's probably not even measure able. How many billions of drivers are there globally and you comment negativity when you got to 20 lol
fungles,
Dec 29, 10:04am
No no, not at all. . I only counted racing drivers. not billons of normal drivers.This does suggest that racing experience does not automatically or necassarily make for a better driver. You are correct though, we need to know how many racing drivers have not been killed or had accidents on public roads. Shit does and will happen. I still say its largely down to luck, place, time and circumstance. As for the little old lady, she is old because she hasnt already killed herself after a lifetime of driving. This does mean something dont you think?
anenigma,
Dec 29, 10:08am
you know you are wasting your time .
fungles,
Dec 29, 10:23am
Discussing and learning from others is never a waste of time. Especially when it comes to driving safely. This is what troubles me on here, the self confidence of those that potentially overrate their ability, and berate other drivers for doing nothing more than driving within their comfort zone, and trying to do this safely. Sometimes this may impede other traffic, better that than a fatal accident surely.
seadubya,
Dec 29, 10:41am
Totally agree that discussion is worthwhile, even with a few hiccups. I do think that increased skill brings an increased comfort zone. For example, I mentioned earlier that my points on this scale were lowered because I slid on diesel and ended up on the wrong side of the road. Because I have been fortunate enough to play around with a few different cars on closed road environments, I managed to control the slide and avoid the big drop off at the edge of the road. I did this by subconsciously recognising what was happening and instead of panicking, controlled the slide and my steering, brake and accelerator responses until the event was over. Knowing how a car feels in a slide allowed me to stay calm and avoid further damage or injury instead of putting my hands over my eyes and screaming. I don't intentionally slide about or sit on the limits of control on public roads, but because of previous experiences I felt comfortable in an adverse condition and knew how to drive out of the slide. When the shit hits the fan, the ability to come out the other side unscathed often comes down to automatic responses, the same responses that get honed when driving closer to the limits of man and machine than is sensible on public roads.
socram,
Dec 29, 10:50am
Self confidence is a pre-requisite of being a good driver. Over or under confidence is a separate issue and neither is positive. In many respects, under confidence generally means a total lack of understanding of the car's limits, which in most cases, are way higher than the driver's.
Got my first ever ticket today for exceeding anything other than the 50kph limit- probably somewhere around the north side of the Harbour Bridge. I usually spot the vans, but must have missed that one as I entered at Onewa Rd - 87kph on the motorway (sic) at 6:23am (a Sunday) = 8.75% excess. As stated before or elsewhere, a motorway by definition is a high speed road - except in NZ.
I'm in the wrong. Just got to pay up ($30) and admit that I slip down the rating scale. Whoops.
Did I cause a near fatal accident or endanger a life? I think not. Revenue gathering?
2get1,
Dec 29, 10:52am
Not at all,that lifetime of driving you mention might have been once a fortnight 5km return trip down the road to cash her pension cheque get the grocery and drive home, all done at 30km/h in a 50 zone in 2nd gear riding the clutch with the handbrake still on. That's not to mention that up until granddad died a few years earlier she had never actually driven as grand dad did it all, even tho she had held a licence since 1922
pestri,
Dec 29, 10:54am
So long as you are not one of those posters who have declared the *they* never exceed the speed limit.
2get1,
Dec 29, 11:00am
Another point To mention,,how many people on buying a new car, specially one with new safety features like say ABS that they have never driven before. Go out and force the car into an ABS activation to see what it feels like ? I've always done it, easy to do one side of the car on sealed road, the other on grass or gravel get up to 30 maybe 50 stand on the brakes with all your might. I advise people to do this if they have never felt ABS working before. Why ?
People that haven't felt an ABS activation often panic when in ABS mode in an emergency as they fell the pedal pulsating under the foot,,which is normal, lift their foot off the pedal, which increases the stopping distance and can lead to a crash when they shouldn't have. Some ABS really kicks the pedal and I have had people say they felt their foot wasn't lifted off the pedal but got kicked off as there was a fault. When in fact it was normal ABS pedal behaviour, they panicked and lifted their foot off the pedal.
That's nothing to do with speed or anything, but about learning what your new car feels like what it drives like etc.
seadubya,
Dec 29, 11:05am
It gave me a fright the first time I stomped the brakes hard with half the car on grass and the other half on seal, I was fully expecting the tarseal side to grip and the car to go into a side slide or spin right round, the ABS certainly did it's job well keeping the car straight while pummelling the bottom of my foot. And this was after a conversation about what to expect, I'd hate to be learning about it at the same time as needing it.
2get1,
Dec 29, 11:11am
Exactly, and how many people are out there right now in ABS cars with no idea who will feel ABS activation the first time, when they need it the most and panic. IMO it's remiss and sales people should have to show and engage this feature as part of selling the vehicle.
I'm not saying we all have to experience an airbag deployment as that is the last line of defence but we should all know what traction control feels like, ABS, yaw and slide control, if our vehicles are fitted with such features. Otherwise you may very well in panic and not knowing undo all the good work the safety features are trying to do, in keeping you out of the shit when you really need it.
socram,
Dec 29, 11:37am
That was one of the reasons for plus points for a driving course - it is where I learned. I'm not ashamed to admit that prior to that 1 day course, I hadn't a clue that ABS only kicked in when you stomped on the brake pedal hard enough to activate it. I (wrongly) thought that having been around since a form of ABS on a road car (Jensen FF if I'm not mistaken) was first introduced, that it basically did the cadence braking, regardless of pedal pressure. Dunlop Maxaret system from memory.
Nor did I know as above, that on mixed surfaces, you still stopped straight and most of all, you could steer past the obstruction with the brakes full on.
I wonder how many drivers know whether or not they even have ABS on each vehicle they drive and are likely to brake accordingly in an emergency? (Another plus for hobby car knowledge.) Methinks that there is a lot more to some accidents than we realise and some gaps in knowledge may be filled in even to posters on here.
2get1,
Dec 29, 12:28pm
No arguements from me there, but then I think we are both coming from a similar point of view and know that speed is only ever and will only ever be one of many contributing factors in a crash. And that allot of emphasis should be placed on all other contributing factors and not just banging on about speed.
fungles,
Dec 29, 1:04pm
On the coast, the shortest trip i do is 1 1/2 hours, not unusual to drive 7 to 8 to Invercargill. Many trips to Chch involve snow and ice in winter. I have never owned a car with ABS/suspension control, or even power steering. My car cannot drive itself like the modern ones do. Much involves gravel secondary roads, one way bridges, and tourists stranded in rental cars. This is not the auckland motorway here. Many modern cars would overheat or be too low to negotiate some of our roads, your motorways are a doddle in comparison. Newer cars with all the fancy heated rear armrests and other indispensables are just too unreliable/short lived for some of these conditions. A city person would be more confident driving in auckland, i am more confident here, would be hopeless in auckland for sure. Hell, i hardly know what a parking meter is, and the only traffic light i am aware of on the coast is at the iron bridge at inangahua! This does not make necessarily me a better or worse driver than you, as we all have a different skill base to call on. This is my point exactly. Accidents happen. Read the conditions, prepare for other drivers seeming random actions, and adjust accordingly. There is no dependable yardstick on anyones driving ability other than a currently valid licence that does suggest that driver has acheived a certain minimum standard. we can do little else. Even the best racing drivers crash. Those with manual cars crash. Owners of a classic car crash. If only it was that simple. Older people do get flustered at times. This is a well known and reasonably common motoring hazard, easily spotted even without the aid of a flag marshal or radio contact with a pit crew. Trust noone on the road, not even yourself, just one moment of inattention.
clatty,
Dec 29, 1:19pm
must be more to life than writing all this crap up all the time.
fungles,
Dec 29, 1:22pm
You are right, im just off to do it right now.
seadubya,
Dec 29, 1:34pm
This board is for motoring enthusiasts, hence all the motoring related discussions. If it doesn't suit you there are plenty of other online forums on trademe or here if you prefer. http://www.seniorforums.com/ If things you do are crap, try doing something else.
socram,
Dec 29, 2:25pm
The irony of that statement is no doubt lost on some people.
anenigma,
Dec 29, 2:29pm
the point some are trying to make fungles is that motor racing generally does set an individual up to be a better and hopefully safer driver.
I have a degree of experience in rallying, and therefore clearly understand that the last thing you do is stand hard on the brakes and try and steer out of it - you will only ever go straight ahead.
I have witnessed many others - and quite a few in rallies in fact - getting in difficulty, jump on the brakes, stop driving the car, and losing what control they did have up to that point. If you instead get on the power a little and keep driving the car, you have a reasonable chance of driving out of it - and thats the point
And the same is often true on sealed roads
socram,
Dec 29, 2:59pm
OK, a revised list, taking on board pestris comments and suggestions and had a strong look. Have deleted the +200kph and substituted the ABS knowledge as more relevant. Competition experience regardless of speed is still very relevant.
Might be easier to read now with points at the beginning. New maximum score +25, minimum -25. So, draft 2.
3 Have taken some form of practical advanced training 2 Consider yourself courteous on the road 2 Have good situational awareness 2 If towing or in a slow vehicle, pull over to let others pass, or use mirrors frequently 2 Keep left except when over taking 2 No accidents for the past 10 years 1 Can parallel park accurately 1 Currently a clean licence (no points) 1 Experience in a range of vehicle classes 1 Experience on gravel, snow, ice 1 Full motorcycle licence or regular road cyclist 1 Have been complimented about your driving 1 Rarely break the posted speed limits by more than 5kph 1 Recent or considerable track or rally competitor experience 1 Regularly check the state of tyres, lights etc. 1 Run a hobby car/bike in addition to a daily driver 1 Stop at traffic lights on amber 1 Understand the differences in braking with and without ABS -1 Have been (justifiably) criticised for your driving -1 Have had a speeding fine in the last 12 months -1 Only have licence for automatics -1 Regularly use the horn or the fingers at other road users -1 Talk on mobile phone whilst driving (not bluetooth) -3 Regularly or occasionally read/write text on mobile phone whilst driving -4 Have been the guilty party in any panel damaging accident in the last 5 years -4 Have knowingly driven over the alcohol limit in the last 5 years -4 Deliberately keep right or obstruct other drivers -5 Have fallen off the road or crossed to the wrong side in the last 5 years for excess speed
fungles,
Dec 29, 3:23pm
I do understand this. Similarly, my learning to drive my DX vauxhall in a paddock at age 10 as already mentioned gave me what little ability i may still have to also react in what hopefully is the best way to reduce the impact or aftermath of a car accident. My experience on dirt bikes also taught fundamental physics in real time. Most drivers never have the privilege to learn these things, comforted and happy that the car has some arbitary crash test number, a few air bags, heated steering column, a powerful cigarette lighter with twin LEDs, and looks good parked in the drive. To most drivers, a car is merely a legacy of 20th century living, the modern way to get from A to B, a mechanical device, an appliance. I also now think this way. Given that all other drivers have an unknown driving ability, good or bad, all i am saying is, never assume anything. I once towed a slightly damaged highway patrol car from a ditch in the Haast pass, once took a local driving instructor to accident and emergency after he rolled his car on a straight section of road. he did have the presence of mind to remove the magnetic sign writing immediately after, thats how i knew he wasnt injured too badly. Have yet to come across a racing driver though. It can happen to anyone. unless they too removed the signs? Finally with this. Many many years ago, TV1 had a news item regarding a Japanese tourist who, after buying a budget vehicle in auckland, had driven all around NZ , SI included, in a Morris 1100, no wof, no reg, and no brakes. To slow his progress on the steeper slopes, he resorted to grinding along the barrier rails with the side of the car. He was finally halted in i think Turangi when he misjudged the curb while parking and carreered into a shop window. To me, this gentleman was a very good and competant driver under what must have been exceedingly and extended stressful circumstances, that being his only accident. Opinions may vary on this.
socram,
Dec 29, 3:31pm
LOL The late great racing driver Graham Hill bought his first car, an Austin 7 with no brakes and also drove it home by the same method as above.
Fungles, your posts are good, but an occasional paragraph break would make them much easier to read.
tub4,
Dec 29, 4:31pm
I'd never rate my own driving, I drive for a living clocking up over 150.000k pa with huge range of vehicles from one of my motorcycles to 44 ton trucks and since being on the roads professionally in 1973 I had 4 minor crashes. I've been very lucky to have employers put driver safety 1st with driver training, I recommend it to everyone, no matter how many times I get to go on a training day I always pick up something.
fungles,
Dec 29, 5:14pm
In around 1965 i sat my licence in a morris 8. The test required driving around the block with the traffic cop seated beside me. The car needed to be held in gear with my left hand, the door held shut with the right, (suicide doors) leaving my left knee to do the steering. Because the car had a current WOF, I was assured these minor difficulties were ok for now, but better to fix them at some stage. As we approached the Allardice st intersection, shuddering brakes caused the front spring shackle to break , the front axle swinging diagonally underneath the car, and causing a big list to the right, throwing the cop on top of me. As we walked back to the transport department, I was complimented on my cool headedness as a new driver, and despite my embarrasment, received my licence. Truth be told, i was scared shitless , paralysis wrongly interpreted as cool and calm. Do we still have defensive driving courses? Havent heard of these for years.
socram,
Dec 29, 7:36pm
The problem with the Defensive Driving course (1983) I took was that there was no driving involved. Company policy for all drivers either with a company car or driving one - including spouses.
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