Past time those machines need to be banned ,the 300. 350. 400. 450.The 2 masted type that are prone to" mast bumping" in heavy turbulence failing the rotor hub’s connection to the mast and in turn separating the blade from the mast.Seems to be an issue and 300 odd machines are registered in NZ. Why are they not all grounded and further banned ? Anyone agree? The mast bumping causing "flapping " is some occurrence that happens in heavy turbulence with a lightly loaded helicopter commonly occurs while passing over mountainous ranges at higher altitude.
martin11,
Jul 22, 6:23pm
For the amount of hours done by R22 's in nz very few have had accidents with mast bumping . It is not over common .
sw20,
Jul 22, 6:24pm
Robinson sells more helicopters than the other big four manufacturers combined. So just in numbers of course they are going to have the most incidents.
The paradox comes from their price, and the fact they are actually quite finicky to fly. They are cheap so they attract new and inexperienced pilots, which really isn't who they are for thank to their unforgiving nature.
strobo,
Jul 22, 6:31pm
The 2 bladed type I meant.
strobo,
Jul 22, 6:34pm
But when it happens they are very experienced pilots who get killed in those machines .Seems to be a history of those machines going down in NZ and not entirely because of pilot error?And quite a bit of money vested in the machine all the same and reluctance to ground them ,is there a burden of proof on a manufacture fault and not yet proven ,is that why they are still flying those copters/?
tony9,
Jul 22, 6:38pm
Helicopters are going to crash, for a variety of reasons. As others have said, the R series are the most common in NZ so of course they have a history of crashing.
tony9,
Jul 22, 6:41pm
The mast bumps are pretty much always pilot error. Robinson have clearly advised a flight envelope that will not create a mast bump error, and no one is arguing with them on that point.
All helicopters (and most fixed wing aircraft) are subject to catastrophic failure if the pilot exceeds the flight envelope.
strobo,
Jul 22, 7:11pm
This is what I found re the safety bulletin. https://www.aia.org.nz/site/aianz/NZHA%20safety%20bulletin%20number%204%20pdf.pdf I have been up in a r22 and also a bell jet ranger among others .The R22 seemed at the mercy of turbulence with up and down droughts where as the jet ranger was an overcomer and the pilot had more control .It seems a safety concern to me the small robinsons and I'd never go up in another of the R22 ever again or be seen dead in one . .All my flights have been over the southern alps .Are pilots thinking rational enough given a situation of avoidance when it happens that things fall apart at the mast after the fact it's too late!
tweake,
Jul 22, 7:59pm
if i remember right the r22 (r44?) has bigger blades and is a bit quicker than the jet ranger. one of the biggest problems is overloading. i think nz had the first case of blade failure due to overloading.
martin11,
Jul 22, 8:46pm
Mast bumping is normally pilot induced .
tony9,
Jul 22, 9:00pm
Mast bumping is most likely to occur under low loading weight conditions, Robinson warn of this.
BTW, Toyota Corollas are over represented in motor vehicle accidents, should they be banned?
tweake,
Jul 22, 9:17pm
wtf is that got to do with my comments? the bigger problem than mast bumping is that they are fast, harder to fly, often overloaded and pushed to their limits. mast bumping is just one of the things that happen when you push past their limits.
i never mentioned banning them. they are perfectly fine helicopter when used correctly for the right type of use. NZ has a bad history of using them for things they where not really designed for. would you use a corolla to lug a ton of gear around every day. no you use a vehicle which is more suited to the loads and the conditions. as such you don't ban corollas because people use them for things they where never intended to be used for.
the-lada-dude,
Jul 22, 11:06pm
Every crash can be traced back to HUMAN error . I think the crash rate is still around 10 % of all choppers go down / year . I know Robinson wanted to stop any more deliveries of their copters to NZ, because of the appalling accident rate
wind.turbine,
Jul 22, 11:27pm
Mast bumping is caused by pilot error and a low G situation where the chopper becomes weightless and the main rotor is unloaded, the thrust from the tail rotor is going to try put it is a roll and the first thing the pilot is naturally going to want to do is fight the roll which is the error that ends it all for them, the rotor hub is already at a critical angle and then they go make it worse by trying to fight the roll over which increases the angle, the correct way is to load up the main rotor again then to gently fix the roll, if you don't load up the rotor first then all that's gonna happen is the rotor assembly will start (bumping) the mast and will snap it off.
So no they should not be banned, its pilot error that is causing this, but remember I'm more worried about dieing in a car cash than when I go flying
tony9,
Jul 23, 12:16am
The OP introduced this thread with mast bumping and banning.
2sheddies,
Jul 23, 12:23am
I've got a very interesting book by John King which has an whole chapter regarding the Robinson. In it, he says that Frank Robinson came to NZ (I think this is going back to the 80's or early 90's) and ended up pissing off all the Kiwi pilots by calling them cowboys. Reason being that they were so excited about all the things they could do with the machine, none of which the manufacturer ever intended it be used for.
martin11,
Jul 23, 1:07am
The R22 was designed for a training helicopter not a general work horse that we use the for .
rovercitroen,
Jul 23, 5:51am
I think the Wallis boys were taught to fly by Bill Black as Tim Wallis wanted them to be taught by the best. It seems that the Robbies are less tolerant of marginal flying conditions than alot of other makes and because they are the cheapest option thats why there are so many of them as a % of the helicopter fleet. I know that years ago Robbies were falling out of the sky when the drive belts broke during flight. I think Robinson got that problem fixed after quite a few years.
shakespeare6,
Jul 23, 6:16am
In the last 20 years I have spent a huge amount of time in a 44 and have been flown up and down the north island on and off hill tops - some with nasty turbulence due to the stracture. Never had an issue - most pilots we use are real experienced ag pilots that have spent a lot of time in 44’s. I have read a lot of the reports on mast bumping and it is an inherent flaw of the R44 but always comes back to pilot error / conditi9ns on the day. As a result our company has stoped using the r44 as part of our health and safety policy. Just means if we’re not slinging loads and it’s just one of us our clients are paying more for heli time.
shakespeare6,
Jul 23, 6:23am
We regularly used r44 on and off sites up to 1300 metres was they highest site We have used them - no issues - weren’t always able to land at those altitudes. Thing that use to scare me most was listening to the drive belts squeal as they tensioned to provide drive to the blades.
lookoutas,
Jul 23, 7:19am
Over half the NZ fleet are Robbie's - so if three helicopters crash in a year, there's a big chance that two will be Robbie's. That's why Tony mentioned Corolla's as a comparison. 22's are like flying a cat with its head in a gumboot.
jantar,
Jul 23, 4:32pm
Try 35% of the country's helicopter fleet are Robbies, but 45% of the accidents and over 50% of the fatalities are Robbies. CAA also report that all 7 mast bump accidents that have occurred in NZ are in Robbies.
tim41,
Jul 23, 4:56pm
So what aviation qualifications do you have
shakespeare6,
Jul 23, 8:56pm
Have a read up on what Masdt bumping actually is and causes it. Not alwayts the machine. I havent heard this crash is a result of mast bumping- most just media hype. There are many other things that can cause failure.
Since the public registrations are closed, you must have an invite from a current member to be able to register and post in this thread.
Have an account? Login here.