Hehe yeah the "lab Testing" thing is a problem in more ways than just emissions testing.
Fuel economy stats for new cars are also tested this way (in a lab on a dyno), which is why almost no cars can meet the fuel economy ratings supplied by the manufacture.
Cars can also be engineered to do well in ancap/euroncap crash tests, since these tests are almost always the same every time, where as real world crashes are not.
mm12345,
Sep 27, 3:43am
I doubt it. BMW have said categorically that they don't use a "defeat" device. I think their share price has probably dropped because 35% of their sales are diesel, and VW has sabotaged the market for all makers.
The 11x over limit, depending on how it's tested, could easily be true for any diesel or petrol car, depending on test conditions. That's how useless the regulations/testing are.
Perhaps VW did everyone else a favour - and they'll get a test method sorted out that actually means something - and incentivises the makers to work on actually improving cars rather than all the effort to meet useless regulations.
gunhand,
Sep 27, 3:47am
Can you imagine the joy and right hand use going on for some if others got caught as well, especially those evil Japanese and their non "drivers" cars.
mm12345,
Sep 27, 4:01am
It wouldn't surprise me if the Japanese and Koreans find some ammunition with which to sue the EU regulators and governments for falsely using emission tests to block trade access over the past decade. The full truth - if we ever get it - will take years to come out.
brapbrap8,
Sep 27, 4:31am
Yes I think there will be serious improvements made to testing now.
Also nice to let car makers know that they will be kept honest if they try and cheat the tests, Hyundai/Kia showed everyone why it is best not to lie about fuel economy, Toyota and GM showed everyone why you should do recalls promptly, and now VW and maybe others will find out how much teeth the law makers have in regards to emissions testing.
tamarillo,
Sep 27, 8:46am
Here's a conspiracy theory. Just been told it's the US banking system driving this. They 'of course' control US govt and put pressure on to make a scene with this, having known for months there are lots of issues around these tests. Why? Well I'm told they need US car makers to be doing better and it suits US foreign policy to weaken Germany. Weird shit, but there is often some reality in these conspiracy theories.
butterfly05,
Sep 27, 9:00am
I think theres certainly more to it. I would even go as far as to suggest remember Malaysia airlines? These corporations and the govt in the US are incredibly insidious. Weather you can prove a link to any of it is the real issue. And im sure they know that.
mm12345,
Sep 27, 12:12pm
There are so many potential conspiracies in this debacle. Not saying that US might not be doing a bit of protectionist slight of hand, but IMO at the core of this is Europe - and too much German influence on Brussels.
One thing is pretty certain though - once US lawyers get their teeth on the bone over there, they won't let go. If you've got time - take a look at this transcript relating to the Toyota "unintended acceleration" debacle. While we were thinking it was some simple glitch or a floor mat slipping, here's 300 pages of expert evidence from one guy discussing ECU program coding, whether there was some accidental bug, if that was negligent, who should have known etc ad infinitum. Don't ask my opinion, I have no clue on this and no desire to read it all - only an expectation that VW USA is going to get pulled to pieces even more: http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/Bookout_v_Toyota_Barr_REDACTED.pdf
gammelvind,
Sep 27, 9:30pm
A bit tin foil hat for me. Still think it is more likely the boffins tried to get round the very restrictive emissions testing by cheating rather than actually making their engines work to the test. It might be that the test is too difficult to achieve with a diesel engine, but "Ve Vill sell our oil vagons at all costs!"
butterfly05,
Sep 27, 11:25pm
So how do you figure two Malaysian jets get taken out within 4 months of each other and years later nobody knows exactly what happened to either of them? Theres multiple possible culprits in both cases. And I find it extremely hard to believe if that was a US, British, or New Zealand airline we wouldnt know more by now.
bill-robinson,
Sep 28, 12:03am
just merican protectionism in action. took them 9 years and millions of dollars to get the ignition locks changed on chevs, the takata airbag scandal is another of the same type.the fines are only press guesses but could be huge.
vtecintegra,
Sep 28, 12:16am
There is a reason why VW was pretty much the only manufacturer to be selling small diesel cars in the United States
nzdoug,
Sep 28, 12:22am
Had a 2005 Passat tdi for 3 years, it was most economical car I,ve ever owned.
sr2,
Sep 28, 12:40am
LOL; "take thee to the Opinions and Politics Topic this instant young man".
You'll find it's populated with like minded fellow conspirators. (Don't forget your tinfoil hat!).
bwg11,
Sep 28, 1:19am
Just read the first 100 pages. WOW. As someone who has taught programming at degree level and actually done some software testing, it is beyond belief that these sort of cases are heard by juries of laypeople.
My head was spinning after 100 pages, I'll read the rest later. It may arrogant of me, but I would expect the jury to either be asleep or totally confused by this testament, and will probably go with the statement of the witness with the most honest face. Where would you find a panel of "experts" who had no business affiliations to either party, so I guess we are stuck with juries.
tamarillo,
Sep 28, 3:05am
Good point. There a lot of downside in the jury system one of which one doesn't always get a panel of ones peers. As for US govt involvement, who knows? This came from a mate who into this conspiracy stuff. Thing is, that's usually some strange and odd stuff behind it. Whilst VW certainly did cheat, why has it been blend up like this when it appears these issues have been known for some time in both emission and crash testing. Hmmmmm
They will end up tearing down VW ECU software to analyse the code line-by-line. It's beginning to get a bit dirty. In some German papers implied blame was being thrown at Bosch. Then a document was leaked dating back to 2007 from Bosch to VAG, referring to an ECU programming defeat used for testing, warning them that if it was to be used in production they'd likely end up in deep poo. Transport Environment has released data on Euro tests putting a figure on average deception at 38% exaggerated fuel economy (hence also stated CO2 emissions) They claim the Euro 7 proposed changes to (dyno) test cycles designed to cut that "cycle-beating" (if not direct cheating) would only reduce that to about 30%. This in Stuff - arguing about how German politicians and car makers are in each others pockets. Probably true, but how different is in in the US or Japan or Korea? http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/72465144/volkswagon-scandal-a-warning-shot-to-german-politicians
billyfieldman,
Sep 28, 10:31pm
I just hope this sort of "systems beating" is not being done for safety and crash testing.
mm12345,
Sep 29, 12:44am
Bit hard to check - even though I can think of a few worthy candidates to send over to Germany as crash-test dummy volunteers in real tests.
tamarillo,
Sep 29, 12:58am
Well it kinda is in that they gave been designing specifically to achieve best star rating in the very specific crash test. Not much test done of what happens if your rear ended at speed for instance. But that's not cheating, just designing to please crash test.
Well sorta. Here's an example of using the rules to achieve a rating:
A certain vehicle from a well-known manufacturer went through crash testing and scored 3.5 stars overall. The manufacturer was hoping for 4 stars and looked through the results for where improvements could be made. They gained a crucial point or two in one section by adding a seatbelt warning light which tipped the final result up to 4, therefore creating a safer car.
gtf,
Oct 2, 6:22pm
News flash - global warming caused by 11 million VW diesel engines.
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