about 2,500,000 - 2.800,000 Yen. (NZ$45 - 50k landed, driveway in NZ).
Regarding the article, frankly I am pretty pissed off that nearly $1m of taxpayer money has gone into this.
Beyond the obvious reasons that hydrogen as a light vehicle fuel is a dead duck (Typically made from methane, so not actually green; Fuel is expensive compared to petrol, or electricity; Cars have short range compared to petrol / diesel; massive cost to set up a distribution network)
We have the benefit of being able to look at other countries experiences regarding hydrogen fuel. In California:
-Sellers of hydrogen cars initially had to include fuel purchases free with lease of cars. (both to do with difficulties accurately metering hydrogen, and to keep drivers blind to actual high cost of fuel). - Big issues with fueling station's. Many were only able to deliver half rated pressure, so would only half fill cars (a big issue when your full range is only 502km (rated), and filling stations are super rare. Also they are extremely slow after initial buffer (2 or 3 cars fuel) has been depleted (like hours to refill). It's not like you can just plug these in overnight at home. - Sales very poor compared to competed to competing zero emissions technology (3000 odd Mirai sold in the USA total, Nissan sell that many leaf's in the USA per month. )
From what I can see (especially for NZ with our unusually clean electricity grid), we shouldn't be wasting money backing hydrogen, which seems to be the clear looser in the light zero emissions vehicle space worldwide.
apollo11,
Jul 12, 2:55pm
CNG/ LPG makes more sense than hydrogen, and probably draws close when it comes to energy efficiency and environmental impact too.
s_nz,
Jul 12, 4:02pm
Most hydrogen is made from natural gas anyway, so heaps of carbon is released when it is made (even if none comes from the cars tailpipe). I think hydrogen has an efficiency edge of CNG (Fuel cell are more efficient that burning fuel in an engine), but not enough to be worth the extra hassle.
Now if we started talking about Hydrogen as a Rocket fuel, not a light vehicle fuel, I would be singing with a different tune.
apollo11,
Jul 12, 4:29pm
I read something about a fuel cell that can run on natural gas, I think it was called the 'Bloom Box' from memory. Efficiency was quoted as 50%, which would make it better than hydrogen.
nzoomed,
Jul 12, 4:45pm
Hydrogen as a fuel is not sustainable and I have no idea why Toyota are pursuing it.
tamarillo,
Jul 12, 4:56pm
pessimistic bunch aren't you. Just cause it ain't viable now bears no relation to what will be viable in a few years. Future thinking.
apollo11,
Jul 12, 5:16pm
I'm still waiting for my 'cold fusion in a bottle' kit.
gsimpson,
Jul 12, 5:49pm
Hydrogen has poor energy density per litre so range poor. Has to be stored at high pressure. Pretty much only considered by car makers to suit low emission requirements of some markets.
nzoomed,
Jul 12, 6:05pm
Would be beneficial to Rocketlab perhaps if they end up using hydrogen in future rockets.
gsimpson,
Jul 12, 6:10pm
Energy density per kg is actually quite good which is why it is popular for rockets. The bulk is less of an issue for rockets.
gamefisher,
Jul 12, 6:26pm
If you read the article properly it seem to be aimed at heavy transport where batteries for EV may not be as practical as Hydrogen but the end result as a renewable source( electrolytic cells) it will be very expensive.
mojo49,
Jul 12, 7:01pm
Hydrogen is or was manufactured in Morrinsville at the dairy factory as a by product of some other process, so maybe more could be made via the dairy industry rather than cracking methane. I suspect CO2 is a by product of splitting off the 4 x H from the C part of the molecule. Hardly green if that is the case. It needs very high pressure storage so the cylinders are very heavy and probably no more weight to energy output efficient than batteries.
s_nz,
Jul 12, 8:11pm
Rocket's run on liquid hydrogen, kept under cryogenic conditions (-253 Deg C at sea level pressure).
This is a completly different ball game to keeping hydrogen at room temperature. You can fit heaps in a small space, and you don't need to hold massive pressures. The technology is also fairly mature (but is somewhat energy intensive).
Liquid hydrogen has been used in a few demo cars (a BMW 7 series). Big downsides are that you need to deal with boil off. If you leave that 7 series parked up for a week, and come back to it, all the fuel will have evaporated, and the tank will be empty.
gamefisher,
Jul 12, 8:31pm
Parked in an enclosed garage that should be fun if there is a slight spark given the very low ignition energy required. What I am pointing out here is that there would have to be a lot of safety features implemented not only with and on the vehicle but elsewhere especially where the gas has a potential to escape in enclosed spaces like carparks etc.
s_nz,
Jul 12, 8:58pm
Yip, it's pretty much a deal breaker, hence why production hydrogen cars have high volume, super high pressure tanks, and deal with the hydrogen as a gas.
For Buses, It will be similar to the situation with CNG, where the entire roof of the bus is covered in cylinders.
This may explain a few things to see how its progressing.
paul861,
Jul 13, 9:15am
wasn't the hindinberg the lesson from experimenting with H as a fuel
s_nz,
Jul 13, 11:51am
Hindinberg was fueled by diesel. Hydrogen was only the lifting gas.
elect70,
Jul 13, 2:23pm
Agree watse of money just so the COL can say they have initiated a "green ' alternative for fossil fuels but its not green its from fossil fuel .we have vast resources for hydro power so we should invest in EV distribution country wide . Several councils already getting in on the act .This is purely a political stunt from the COL . Sooner they go the better for NZ If want a heavy transport fuel then make biodesel
the-lada-dude,
Jul 13, 5:16pm
I know many Co's have experimented with H in internal combustion engines . it is incredibly tricky to use . the flame speed through the chamber is nearly instantaneous. so it is NOT a burn, but an explosion. from memory the best results were by injecting steam with the H to slow the flame speed . it all got very complicated and others point out handling the H fuel is a nightmare
apollo11,
Jul 13, 5:23pm
Issues with hydrogen embrittlement of materials. It's odourless and burns with a colourless flame. Highly explosive. Very tough to contain.
Sounds perfectly safe.
gunsmoke4,
Jul 13, 5:47pm
its ok if its stored as NH3
Since the public registrations are closed, you must have an invite from a current member to be able to register and post in this thread.
Have an account? Login here.