Clutch judder

dublo, Jul 12, 12:01pm
Triumph 2500TC converted from automatic to manual/overdrive 35000 km ago. Was very smooth for a long time but now the clutch has worsening judder when starting off. Ok when going up or down through the gears when on the move. Judder is noticeable when engaging at or just above idle (c800 rpm) and even if revs are increased to about 1500 to give some slip, or on hill starts. ) No sign of engine mount faults. Low-km (110000)
engine is very smooth. Oil from rear crankshaft seal? Flywheel run-out excessive? Clutch thrust fault? Worn clutch? (The last is unlikely in the easy conditions in which the car lives.)
Before I take it to the garage to have the clutch replaced any qualified comments will be gratefully received!
franc123, Jul 12, 12:23pm
Well its pointing to something internal. Was the flywheel machined and what parts were renewed at the time of the conversion?
muzz67, Jul 12, 12:27pm
Old rwd Lancer developed a judder,(years ago now. ) , Dad did a 4th gear start which needed lots of clutch slip, and it was good for a long time after.
He reckoned was a smidge of oil on clutchplate , meybe from main seal, as I had to park on a very steep driveway for at the time.
intrade, Jul 12, 12:38pm
not machine flywheel rais the rpm more and let it out faster or slower as testing. older cars are just with stuff like that at least no failing dual mass flywheel as that would dampen the judder for you.
intrade, Jul 12, 12:39pm
thats why you should always do the main rear crank and the imput shaft seals-.
peanuts37, Jul 12, 12:48pm
35000kms ago is a while ago and may have just used the old clutch parts as looked OK back then.
m16d, Jul 12, 12:49pm
O the joy of doing a clutch on a 2.5 Triumph. I think it's easier to take the motor out.
muppet_slayer, Jul 12, 1:01pm
Nothing you can do externally to fix it so it's quite pointless if you are asking for a quick fix for it. It's one of those problems that need taking apart to discover what is causing it and only then will the fault reveal itself. We can all guess what is wrong but that's no help to you. All the suggestions given so far will reveal themselves upon dismantling. Could be rear main oil leak onto the clutch, could be uneven flywheel/pressure plate surface, could be slack clutch plate springs, could be slack pressure plate, could be oil leak at gearbox input shaft onto clutch, could be just a worn clutch system etc etc.
muppet_slayer, Jul 12, 1:04pm
Do get the flywheel surfaced and thickness checked, if you're going to throw a new clutch system at it.
kingfisher21, Jul 12, 1:49pm
Not wrong there!
dublo, Jul 12, 2:16pm
franc123 wrote:
Well its pointing to something internal. Was the flywheel machined and what parts were renewed at the time of the conversion?[/quote
Thanks, franc (and everyone else who has replied.) Flywheel was faced by a machine shop next door to the garage who did the swap from auto to manual, enough to (apparently) get it within run-out specs. A new clutch and thrust bearing were fitted. Yes, will take it to our WoF shop and see what the knowledgeable Triumph guy says. Will also get him to check out the throw-out mechanism for any wear. Gearbox removal isn't too hard when a Triumph is on a hoist (not so easy at home if you just have ramps!)
poppy62, Jul 12, 2:35pm
While the problem could really be in the Flywheel / Clutch assembly area. I would suggest you consider the fact that the 2 end float "thrust bearings" for the Crankshaft may be worn. I'd be trying to see how much movement there is on the crankshaft, by pulling/pushing on the crank pulley. This was/is a common issue on the Triumph engine. I ran Triumphs for 15 years.
dublo, Jul 12, 4:07pm
Yes, I am aware of crankshaft end float problems. All of our cars are fine
and this one has only 0.006" play, right on spec! Car has done only 110000 km, 75000 as automatic.
yz490, Jul 13, 6:11am
Think it was my old late "60's Holden that did that & just smoked it up with top gear start or two & was all good--for a while anyway.Had a leaking rear wick crank seal so probably getting on the clutch if it could. Ran disposable nappies tied under the front of the bell housing with a stretchy--well it worked for a while. Had a triumph 2,5PI manual overdrive in the original maroon colour. Jeez that car was quick [& very thirsty as liked being given its head].
mrfxit, Jul 13, 6:55am
Rear gearbox mount failing?
Can show up as a judder & only needs a slight clutch judder to amplify it
dublo, Jul 13, 10:24am
Yes, that rear mount is one of the (very few!) design faults of the car, with a lot of engine and gearbox weight taken by the vertical blocks of rubber in the mount, which sag and can shear off in old age. This one still looks good. I checked the usual shops' websites: clutches now seem to be in the $550+ bracket.
poppy62, Jul 13, 10:49am
Just another thought, probably long shot, but covering all the bases. I note you've gone from auto to manual, was the Input shaft spigot bush on the crank get installed?
dublo, Jul 13, 11:50am
Not familiar with that part but the Tauranga mechanic who did the job knew his Triumphs and had done a good number of those conversions.
kazbanz, Jul 14, 8:16am
Why not try "kiss" first.? Given its a little used vehicle there may be corrosion or contamination simply caused by lack of use.
So going out and "giving it s$$$" may be all that's needed.
My logic is that if I'm wrong worst you have is a burnt plate which you would have to put all the labour into anyways to investigate by looking inside. Ie You wouldn't be worse off
muppet_slayer, Jul 14, 8:25am
It wouldn't have taken long to self destruct if it didn't have a spigot bearing, it is VERY important to the operation of the whole clutch system and input shaft bearing in the gearbox. You'd be lucky to get 35 minutes out of it let alone 35000 ks if it had no spigot bearing.
poppy62, Jul 14, 12:59pm
Yes true! I took it that it was just a recent conversion because he was going back to the w/shop that did the job.
dublo, Dec 21, 9:44am
muzz67 wrote:
Old rwd Lancer developed a judder,(years ago now. ) , Dad did a 4th gear start which needed lots of clutch slip, and it was good for a long time after.
(I had the Triumph's gearbox removed 15000km ago to have the overdrive replaced with a better one (there's a whole long story about that. ) and the mechanic said the clutch was then about 20% worn .)
I finally got the car out today and tried the clutch slipping technique to see what would happen. Handbrake firmly on, chocks ahead of front wheels, Started engine, engaged top gear, up to 2000 rpm and partially engaged clutch. Revs dropped to 1500, held that for 10 seconds or so and tried out the car on the road. Much better! Did the slipping procedure again and now the judder is barely noticeable. So perhaps I will just do that if the problem comes back, and forget about a new clutch until it really needs one!
Thanks, everyone, for your contributions.