2007 Fiat Punto, timing chain failure - Jazz?

yeah I read that the same engine was in the Doblo, Panda and a few Vauxhalls, didn't think they would be in a Ford though when Ford have their own small diesels! Will look into those two wreckers. Thanks very much!

That can't be right.

These things are cheap as chips to fix and super reliable :) words i have heard before haahaa

which is what I asked in post 2
PW if you get serious about this project give me a yell. Theres a good chance I'll be bringing a fairly big van in from the UK. You'd still pay auzzie customs but it might save ya a fair bit of freight if it was "just" coming from dauckland

Fix It Again Tomorrow - FIAT

Fix It Again, Tony!

Hi Philip,
Sorry I havn't been on here of late so didn't see the thread.
Funnily enough, that is exactly the year, make, model, engine, transmission of my wifes Punto.

Firstly, definitely don't let him send it to the wreckers thats just crazy! However at the same time do be mindeful of how much you spend on it as while I can't comment on Australia they are coming down in price here. Especially with those km's.

To be straight up I have had little to do as of yet with the timing chain versions of those engines, other than driving them ours is only just coming up for any maintenance of note and none in the family have given any problems. It does seem really weird to me though given that family of engines is known for doing into the millions of km's in the likes of the Ducato. (O.K it has the 2.3 and larger versions but its much the same design) This is certainly the first instance of it happening that I have come accross first hand, although no doubt a scour of the internet will find others. as it does with pretty much any fault on any car.

I definitely like the idea of importing an engine, there are various U.K based breaker yards that operate online, ebay etc. Also, post on the Fiatforum as they will likely be more than happy to help and someone may even have a crashed one etc.

I would also be tempted to whip the head off and see what sort of damage it has. Parts for Fiats are pretty well priced, although again sourcing from the U.K is possibly best for you in OZ. I use shop4parts and find them excellent, if you make a token donation to the Fiat Forum you can use their bulk discount code which is well worthwhile even for one order. So yes. I wouldn't necessarily be in a hurry to write it off as too expensive to rebuild. unless of course you have already seen massive damage to pistons etc.

If you don't mind asking I would be interested to hear what your workmate has been getting economy wise BTW. Keep me posted if you have any questions, just a shame though that the Fiat/VW related problems you have always seem to be odd ones I havn't really encountered myself.

EDIT,
There arn't 1.3 Diesel Swifts and or SX4's running around in OZ are there! They should be the same engine, might find one an old lady has written off.

Oh and if you are thinking of doing it up as a car to keep, we like ours but its no MK5 Golf. I like the styling but its not the remarkable breakthough vehicle the MK2 was back in the day. That said though, good competent, safe and fairly well featured economical transport. No ball of fire like the 1.9 though.

Did a bit of a google. Yip seems to be known to happen occasionally, good news is the common consensus is that the damage almost always seems to be confined to the head. New head and timing chain etc seems to be the repair method of choice.

I probably didn't point it out above but I think someone else did. This is an extremely popular engine on a global scale used not only across the range of consumer and commercial Fiats but also in various other manufacturers vehicles.

There has to be a complete head around for a good price somewhere. Also. why not contact Mal at Dino's and Italian Auto's in Auckland. Shipping a secondhand head from them to OZ is possibly economical if they have one. That said new or used ex U.K should be doable. I checked eper (online fiat parts identifer) but its too out of date to list a new separate head.

Some propaganda for you.
http://www.zigwheels.com/news-features/auto-insight/fiat-13litre-multijet-a-universal-engine/8058/1

These part numbers are probably right of the head and may be of help with googling around. But PLEASE double check before ordering!
71729497
71739601

Oh and I havn't used them but 24/7 spares might be a good source of a cheap one from the U.K. Just fill out a quote form, please let me know if these guys are any good as I may use them in future.

This is also probably the right part and even though it says its an exchange unit they may sell it for a bit extra on a non-exhange. Or you could just send them your old head. sometimes freight to the U.K is not that bad.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-CORSA-AGILA-1-3-DIESEL-RECON-CYLINDER-HEAD-/110880902230!pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19d1044c56#ht_607wt_932

Best of luck!

Thanks Jazz for that.

So far I've found other timing chain related issues, all of them happening with lower milage than 200,000kms.

http://www.fiatforum.com/tech-talk/281458-timing-chain-failure-1-3-jtd-grand-punto.html http://fiatcarsindia.tankala.com/2012/03/2012-fiat-linea-and-grande-punto.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Timing_chain_broken_on_Fiat_Punto_diesel_2006_-_Is_this_a_common_problem http://www.fiatforum.com/lets-talk-fiat/184257-diesel-multijet-injectors-t-chain.html

also found many references to Fiat suspending engine production in 2008 due to a quality issue detected.

Neither the diesel Swift or SX4 are offered in Australia and I think the 1.3 diesel Swift and SX4 are Indian models only. In fact none of the other 1.3 Multijet vehicles are offered in Australia, the Fiesta gets the 1.6 diesel instead.

I am keen to at least have a gander at it and pull the cylinder head off, problem is being quite new to Australia I don't exactly have a range of tools at my dispersal like I did in NZ. I would imagine it would require a special socket for the cylinder head bolts at the very least.

M12 or M14 Male Ribe Key.

Just googled that - what the hell is wrong with the normal Hex, Torx, Allen or standard head bolts! Why have yet another type!

Hmmm I would have thought the swift Diesel would have been popular in Europe but I am only guessing. I think its actually available in NZ now too.

That aside, sorry can't tell you for sure off hand what tools you will need. I would say definitely there will be a set of tools for the timing chain setup and replacement (check ebay for a kit) but the cylinder head, again guessing but I suspect the worst you will probably find is some hex and/or torx bolts. Which is pretty standard fare with modern stuff now.

I would say there is a reasonable chance of opening it for a look see with out tools and then just buying the kit for the timing chain if you proceed.

I did some reading and it seems the rockers were intentionally made to be sacrificial in this circumstance so its definitely looking good possibility of just head work required.

I too found plenty of references to breakages however I am not rushing to condemn the engine as I am also aware there have already been many millions made (I remember an article I read, possibly old refered to the 4 millionth units built)

Also. I wonder how many breakages are attributed to poor oil or lack of changes. Speaking of which I would be really keen to know what oil it had been running if you wouldn't mind asking.

I am not by any means dismissing this or being an apologist (I potentially have a lot to lose and will be checking mine and following up on this issue with interest). However with at least a similar number of engines on the road as there are people in NZ I would expect to see some breakages of pretty much any part, mentioned somewhere on the net. Even half of one percent of these engines have suffered such a failure to date that's at least 40'000 grumpy people some of which are likely to post about it.

Thanks for posting about this, I am keen for any updates/info as it comes to hand. I havn't been bothering with motoring much of late so if you need me down the track and can't find me perhaps ask Kaz to flick me an email.

Best of luck with it, definitely worth having more of a look see and a price up.

Edit,
Just did a quick ebay check and timing tools are here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FIAT-1-3-JTD-MULTIJET-ENGINE-CAM-SHAFT-SETTING-TOOLS-1871000200-/360458648896!pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item53ed027d40#ht_1925wt_794

Oh and one more thing. perhaps check and see in case the 1.3 and 1.6 heads are the same should you come accross a 1.6 head cheap locally. It may only be the rockers and bits you need which may well be the same even if the head is different. Just another idea for the hat!

I havn't looked but are they really definitely still using ribe! I ask as the Fiats I work on circa 2000ish looked like they were phasing ribe out in favour of torx with later versions of the same model having torx where ribe was used initially.

Also. if it does say ribe for that engine if its easy to do physically check it before ordering. I have seen ribe listed where torx exists in practice as per the above. This may also be due to market variances.

Failing that. perhaps Fiat just had a lot of old ribe head bolts to use up! (sounds funny but thats why the Multipla uses the headlights it does, crash ratings took the car the lights came out of off the roads prematurely so they just created another use)

BTW, I got a complete ribe set from the U.S via ebay quite cheap. I have to admit, I am yet to use it on anything not Fiat as of yet.

Oh, and I also agree. torx and ribe are so similar its a pain in the backside everyone didn't just agree to use one or the other. I see no engineering advantage either way.

oh and Jazz he was averaging about 4.4L/100km.

Cheers for that, ours seems a bit on the thirsty side. I will prise it from the hands of the Mrs next month and investigate while I give it a good service.
Thanks.

A Punto not as economical as it should be! Oh my.

bare in mind he travels at a constant 100km/h for most of his commuting. He basically does the equivalant of driving from Hamilton to Manukau and back every day, except with no Bombay hill to get over.

You won??

I wonder if its a case of the worst version of a fiat is a fiat! Kinda like the worsst golf version to buy is the golf.The seat and audi versions seem to be better

Tell you what, you drive the Seat and I will drive the Golf. then we can see who's happier!

LOL, yeah, yeah, smarty pants.
Anytime you want to chime in with other vehicles where you are disappointed with your4.5 l/100km economy go right ahead.

On a serious note, good point about the running, mine is doing similarly on similar runs but I do think its far enough from the official 3.7l/100km to warrant some investigation. Its funny with Punto's I have no trouble doing considerably better with the combined and urban cycle running but the extra-urban can be a struggle, but I have never been as far away as this before.

Oddly, with the VW's I can usually exceed the claimed extra urban economy without problem. With Toyota's. well I am usually too depressed from driving one to care.

sludge build up in chain tensioner piston
loose chain flogs out the slipper guide
have seen it often on farm bikes