ouch. Cheating the emissions tests. wasn't someone accusing jap cars of cheating the economy tests? Thats a huge fine per vehicle, I bet they wont have to pay that much, but it will certainly send the message to manufacturers.
countrypete,
Sep 19, 3:21pm
Naughty naughty Germans!
skull,
Sep 19, 3:24pm
That sort of fine would surely put them under, $37k per vehicle is astronomical considering the numbers involved. Is this how they got a decade ahead of the competition? You would have to wonder if other manufacturers are doing similar but just not yet been rumbled.
kazbanz,
Sep 19, 3:28pm
I wonder though if this is just a case of VW got caught. As in how many others have the same deal. It genuinely doesn't surprise me. Virtually the first thing you do converting a modern road bike to a race bike is get rid of the gear that reduces noise and emissions at a specific RPM etc. So at that time and that RPM the bike passes. 1000 more or less and its a different story. Its a well known "ruse" manufacturers have been using for at least the last 20 years. This isn't any one manufacturer this is all those I'm aware of. VW have just taken it one step further.
marmar1,
Sep 19, 3:36pm
37k plus the price of a potential recall.
tamarillo,
Sep 19, 4:04pm
Could face. up to. Sensationist journalism. Can't be too worried if they're buying the red bull f1 team.
countrypete,
Sep 19, 4:31pm
Suzuki just paid VW $3.8b or so to repurchase their Suzuki shareholding, so I would say that VW is not too short of cash right now. Kazbanz is probably on the money - they all do it to some extent in different areas.
poppy62,
Sep 19, 4:58pm
If the pollution is 40 X worse on the road than at testing point, then, are we to assume that, Diesel vehicles that don't have the "FOR TESTING" only software, actually are, as bad, if not worse than the VW for emission levels of Pollution on the road?
brapbrap8,
Sep 19, 4:59pm
Yes all the manufacturers will have tricks to do well in emissions tests, often when reading motorbike tests the testers mention the flat spot in the power band, that happens to be at exactly the RPM that the emissions and sound testing is conducted.
It's not just diesels with NOx - "cycle-beating" happens with petrol engine cars too. There's often a huge discrepancy between Euro economy figures stated by NZ auto dealers and US EPA standards. There was the recent case of the Ford Kuga which was advertised in NZ as using 8l/100km, yet the same model in US EPA tests used ~20% more, Ford NZ appearing to concede that the US EPA figure was more consistent with "real world" mileage. There's also a problem with FSI - particulates. FSI produce far higher levels of small particulates than throttle-body injected cars - just because you don't see black smoke doesn't mean they're "safe". Some FSI petrol cars are releasing dangerous nano-particulates at levels as high as pre-DPF diesels.
The figure of US$18bn is based on maximum penalty, of course it's unlikely to be anywhere near that. The impact on VW sales in the US is another story. But VAG aren't a huge player in the US market - Toyota outsell VAG by about 4:1. Hyundai/Kia got pinged by EPA for lying about economy. This exposure of VAG's sneaky trick is (hopefully) going to expose what's going on globally. It won't just be VW. Because of the nature of the "trick", I'd expect EPA to react rather strongly - much like IRD behave when someone's deliberately and cynically "cheated".
mm12345,
Sep 19, 7:45pm
Very good question - with a simple answer I expect - if they passed testing without using that "sneaky trick", then they're not going to be as bad - are they?
US EPA test cycles are much more stringent than EU tests. I wonder if VW were "cornered" - they might have met EU standards without needing the "trick" they appear to have used in the US.
frytime,
Sep 19, 8:11pm
Where's intrade with how tight emsion software is?
mm12345,
Sep 19, 10:24pm
According to Bloomberg, EPA now considering criminal charges against VAG executives, and lawyers are already setting up class-action processes for owners of the affected cars to sue VAG. I don't think this one's going to go away quietly. There doesn't seem to be any "mitigating factor" available - ie "we didn't know, we did know but acted too slowly, we 'made a mistake in our measurements' etc".
VAG put huge effort into marketing based on economy and environmental performance. It looks like it was based on a lie - and they're really going to be caned for it. Fraud. Hope it sends some shivers down the spine of some other auto makers.
tamarillo,
Sep 19, 11:22pm
Whenever i see the words 'could be' and 'up to' I think 'sensationalism'. But yes there is a very real issue, which will probably expose industry wide trickery. Even car makers happily admit to journos that they tune and specify vehicles to pass tests, including the gearing which for modern roads is often stupidly high. VW just overtook Toyota as world no 1 so are great target for this.
mm12345,
Sep 19, 11:59pm
It's be a damned good thing IMO if exposure of this fraud by VW opens up questions of how all the large global carmakers behave. Unfortunately, it's not going to happen, governments and car makers are too deep into each other's pockets.
VAG will likely be a "whipping boy" in the US.
Toyota got slammed $1.2 billion fine and another $1.2 billion class action for the "unintended acceleration" scandal where there were very few cases of death/injury, but it looks like GM's getting away with less than a $1 billion fine for their key/ignition switch issue - linked to over 150 deaths, the whole thing covered up by GM for years. Hyundai got slammed, but Ford got a slap with a wet bus ticket for exaggerated economy claims. It's good to be American - in America.
kazbanz,
Sep 20, 12:09am
I guess the question is going to be fairly simple isn't it. Is the "cheat" software fitted to ALL of these vehicles or just the US market examples? Actually I'd follow that up with Is it a 50 state issue or just 1 states? But that's on the basis of the old days where one or was it two states had much tougher emission laws. Bikes that were 49 state bikes had more HP
I wonder if simply detuning them will hold the solution. It always confused me when after market tuners claim they can give my tractor x% more power and improve consumption by xx amount, all guaranteed but nothing said about how altering the computer from factory affects actual emissions out the exhaust. Some on here might know more.
mm12345,
Sep 21, 9:36pm
With California DMV, smog tests for petrol cars is carried out every two years, but only once they're 6 years old. Diesels get smogged when they're two years old. It looks like VW TDI owners were getting pinged at smog testing stations, then going back to dealers for inspection, or course everything was in spec, then they were getting a message that there were some DMV stations which for some reason would issue a pass, and ended up having to do a run-around. Now it could be that the DMV stations which would pass them used tests more consistent with EPA cycle, so the defeat was disabled. Then the penny dropped. VW are in very deep crap on this.
mm12345,
Sep 21, 9:48pm
Turning the emissions defeat "cheat" program off will effectively detune them. It's probably going to be a big problem now for VW to get them to meet smog standards without having them driving like old Hyundais. Customers will want all of their money back - they'll sue. That sets a level of about US$10 billion or more for what class action lawyers will be chasing, plus a few billion more in fines.
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