Toyota Echo vs Fiat Punto - Help decide!

I absolutely repsect jazz's contribution. You might remember me from vw touran vs ipsum thread last week. Dad ended up giving into japanese vs european conflict and bought an ipsum, but he is very happy with it. could've been happier as we saw a touran yesterday adn it actually looks decent.

And believe me I am not biased to japanese or european, just want to buy what is best. And the decision will not be based solely on jazzpianoman's long posts.

Anyone recommend other japanese cars for say 4k budget which could tick all my boxes!

There is a way of telling if your vvti system is clogged up and you have listed it to a tee. rough idle (worse when cold) a huge lack of power and fuel consumption through the roof cause you need to have ya foot up it to get anywhere. The 1000cc is not a bad engine when running in correct tune with enough power to pull the little shopping basket round, so when someone says there gutless then in most cases the engine is slugged up or the driver is looking for a race car lol

I drive a 5700cc V8 as a daily driver and I agree with you that the 1000cc engine is not gutless, as I have both.
It's extremely zippy until you are on a hill on a motorway and want to overtake. Surely that's what you would expect from a 1 litre engine. You don't buy one of these cars for their performance capabilities now, do you.

Thanks 73040,
This is going to sound surprisingly simplistic but the weird thing is at that price point in automatic there really isn't anything else that will give you all the things you are looking for.
Remember how we talked about the fancy gearbox in the Touran and how it made a huge difference in economy!
Oddly we have the same situation here, one of the reasons the Punto blitz's everything else little and automatic in that price range is its clever CVT. Its the same situation only worse in that ALL the opposition cars are either using a 4 speed auto (which is even worse than in the people movers because you have much less power to drive it) or there are a handfull who also use CVT. The trouble with the other cars that use CVT (like the Jazz) in this segment is their design is usually no where near as good. That means chance of CVT failure is high. Most of the problem comes from them not using a proper CVT filter as is the case with the Jazz.
The Fiat on the other hand is really reliable, Fiat in conjunction with a couple of other companies put the first proper modern volume produced CVT's into cars over 30 years ago and Fiat has used CVT's instead of auto's in all its small cars from about 1980 - 2005. So Fiat had significantly more time and investment to sort their product before the 2000 MK2 Punto came out.
Its really good that someone else pointed out the disappointing city economy from the Echo. In Auckland with its start/stop traffic around town the likes of the Echo will barely every be able to "lock" its transmission leaving the torque converter slipping (this also is a compensation mechanism for a lack of gears) so you are always in that 20-30% loss economy situation while its unlocked.

Now interestingly that particular Fiat CVT has a torque converter as well. however because the gearing is infinitly variable the torque converter can lock almost straight away. Plus once its going the system can always be in the absolute perfect ratio to get the most out of the little engine. Thats how such a little car can cruise at 100km/h at just 1950 RPM its because it can lower the ratio any time by any amount it needs, for example if you turn into a big head wind it can pump up the revs just a little to say 2050 if thats what it needs. The Toyota on the other hand can't do that so has to be in "compromise" mode all the time.
Its just like going from riding a 3 speed releigh 20 to a fancy 21 speed road cycle the same rider can ride a lot faster/longer and cope much better on the hills.
Now also talking about economy the Punto dosn't just stop at the clever transmission. It has a very clever engine that is renowned for being very efficient and is still in production and very competitive today.
Then you have a bunch of other clever economy saving ideas because the whole car is designed with fuel efficiency as a key priority (whereas the likes of the Echo is not). Things like the electric power steering for instance. With electric power steering you are only expending energy (and then very efficiently) when you are actually turning the wheel. Old fashioned powersteering is turning a hydraulic pump all the time the engine is going and that uses extra fuel. The difference in economy through running the electric power steering is about equivalent to carrying one less passenger all the time. Then there are some clever aerodynamic trics and so on and so fourth.

The other thing to consider is the extra power. Well partly that comes from the efficient drive train and fuel economy measures. For example, just like the electric power steering saves fuel it also means the car can accelerate better. Same goes for the other clever things like the CVT etc.

Now speaking of the CVT it can also do a couple of other things to help you in the power department.

Firstly you need to be aware that engines have several rev points that are of importance depending on what you are wanting to achieve. When you don't have many gears you are nearly always working on a compromise of being somewhere near the revs you need. With a CVT you can nail the perfect rev point and hold it which makes a huge difference.

Those points are "Peak Torque" "Peak Power" and "Peak Economy". This post could easily become especially long winded but to keep it simple say you are climbing up the Bombay hills with the car absolutely loaded with your gear for moving. A little automatic like the Echo is going to have to chop way down and rev its little engine to bits (or heaps of power if it tries to take the massive leap to the next gear) to get up the hill.
The Punto if you have it in "economy mode" (little button by the gear stick) will allow you to put your foot right to the floor if you want but it will only hold about 4500RPM where the car is still smooth and not revving itself to bits. If you need more power again say to pull into a gap and pass you can push the button for power mode and it will hold the revs at peak power (6000RPM) and give you every last drop of power if you need it. Again the Toyota can only hit and miss at giving you the most the engine has.

As a side note, you can also click the transmission into "tiptronic mode" and enjoy 6 "virtual gears" which is great for alpine descents etc where you want more control over whats happening.

Anyhow, hopefully that goes some way to giving you an idea as to why the car is so much more powerful/efficient. A Japanese Auto car of the same age generally needs to be up around 1600cc to give you similar performance (and it will never catch the Fiat on economy). Go do some hills in a 1500CC Demio, Suzuki etc and you will see what I mean.

Remember too the fuel figures on paper mean nothing when comparing the Fiat to the Toyota because the testing system Toyota uses is completely different.

Glad to hear things are going well.

Its exactly the case. Even your own example illustrated this!
The Echo has no modern electric power steering (which pretty much everyone is changing to these days) so it has a slight reliability advantage from using a system thats basic (but inefficient) and over half a century old.
We are not just talking about getting a sub woofer with the stereo the Punto has for example 2-3 times as many airbags (4-6 airbags depending on year) the ability to turn some airbags off, the much more clever transmission with tiptronicetc. There is the dual mode system for the power steering with light settings for city use, and the list goes on.

Its a seriously well appointed car for the time/price bracket.

The thing is though, you CAN have both (well to some degree the Punto is obviously not a 5.7 litre V8 and never will be). I have driven the Kaimais and Bombay hills many times with 5 adults on board in our work ones and been able to breeze up there with the rest of the traffic without having to rev the guts out of the motor. Yet the economy is still better than an Auto 1000cc Echo.
The Punto even puts some bigger cars like the 2.0 Automatic Mondeo to shame with the refinement and poise with which it handles big hills when loaded.

Right, that should be enough to fuel the flames for today, have a great day everyone!

Jazz, you forgot to mention that the CVT in the Punto must be serviced on time every time. Every 40,000km's.

Jazz guy, if I sold Punto's, you are the guy I would want to hire.

Yip, I was going to put that in my usual things to know about and pre-check novel if we get that far. I like how you have been paying attention! Eyes bloodshot from all the reading yet!

Thanks. I am a pretty good salesman (used to sell piano's among other things) but only if I really truelybelieve in the product. There is so much satisfaction in knowing that someone else is likely enjoying something as much as I have. Especially with "hidden gems" like the Punto where you can just get so much more car for the money when everyone else has to live with a severe compromise. oh bugger there I go again!

How does the electric power steering save fuel and improve acceleration!

Would have thought that surely it's the wheel alignment, size of tyres and the steering inputs from the great big nut behind the wheel that dominate those sorts of effects!

The theory being an electric motor is more efficient than a pump.

I think it is *on demand* (electric) as opposed to *constantly driven* (pump)

Where are all the Fiats!
Don't see them being used on public roads.

Yes, you guys have it in one. You are not spinning a pump all the time, as I said it makes about the same difference economy/performance wise as lightening the weight of the car by one passenger. Its not a huge difference in itself but thats dosn't matter because its one of many little measures done to improve economy/performance which equate to a significant difference overall.

The proof is in the pudding when you charge up the Kaimais/Bombay's etc with a big load on.

Questions for jazz. What could one reasonably expect the CVT trans life in a Punto to be! How can trans condition be established when buying a second hand Punto! Cheers.

Remember, these cars are getting older now so take your time and pick a nice one. Any 10 year old car can be a dog and unreliable if it has been abused regardless of what some would have you think.
Buying a reliable car is about balance, its worth reiterating because everyone seems caught up on buying on badge alone when in reality reliability is a combination of:

*Age
*KM's travelled
*Type of running (i.e hard city use or gentle open road running)
*Servicing/maintenance (frequency of service, quality of oils and parts, how comprehensive the servicing has been, and even things like whether the car has been kept washed and clean can be a factor)
*Make/Model/Year

Concentrating on one aspect only is just a waste of time. Its unlikely a car will score perfectly across the board but you get the idea.

We don't have a huge number around in NZ (Mostly because the importer has no clue about marketing etc) but we do have a reasonable number, especially in the CIty's where cars like the Punto are most accepted and appreciated.
That said though a lot of it is psychological. Have you ever bought a new car and then noticed just how many there are on the road the same as yours!
Thats because to "notice" something you have to be actively aware of what you are looking for on at least a subconscious level.
Just ask MRS Jazz, our trips together involve a regular commentry of "Nice Alfa","Theres a Punto with wheels like ours", *Waving to other Multipla's*, "Ooo that Marea sounds nice" etc etc you get the picture.

You just lost me there :P

hey thanks and I'm definitely going to need that checklist of things to check when looking at a punto.
So repeating myself,-- "What I need is economy , reliability, safety, style, enough power to go roadtripping with 3 or4 in the car and able to pass trucks and go up mountain(not very often).

So i'm guessing that rules out 1000cc. But then again if it is a big tradeoff between economy and power I'll choose economy over power as long as it has enough power to pass trucks. ""

and automatic. So far only punto is on the table and maybe corolla, familia hatch but they are so expensive for a basic model with hardly any electrics!

Jazz you are right about buying a car then noticing how many others there are. When I bought my first car, a '69 Mk2 Cortina, I hadn't realised how many there were.
Was talking to someone with a Citreon last week and asked if they had had people warn them off a European car - they said yes but had had it several years and no problems.
It would be interesting to know how many of the people who have bad luck with European vehicles fail to service them on time AND with the right oil, etc.

A while back, I set out to purchase some paint for a bike I was building. I wanted blue, but I couldn't decide quite what shade. I decided to watch the blue cars as I drove along to help me choose a colour. It seemed every car was painted blue !

Shelleigh and drog you are spot on. People are just so quick to dismiss things of a psychological nature which is a shame. Because of how our lives have changed so drastically compared to what we were designed for its so important to keep one step ahead of the brains "auto pilot". Many experiments have been done that show our collective crazy idiosyncratic behaviors that cause easily avoidable disasters like the global financial crises.

We see the same thing here, if we were discussing buying a Punto in many other countries it would be the prime candidate rather than the underdog that gets eyed suspiciously.