Hi Tamarillo, thank you for your kind comments. As I am just a wee bit obsessed with our new motor (channeling British tv cops and villains of a certain vintage here), can you please tell me why real wheel drive is "just better"? (Or should that be please Guv'nor ?) Sorry. too much Sunday night Prime TV combined with the aristocratic looks of the Mark X.
daryl14,
Mar 2, 3:06am
Shit the guys only been posting on here a month. Don't give him a fat head.
beetle18,
Mar 2, 3:27am
Thanks Daryl. We've appreciated his helpful comments.
Oh well you asked. now this is my opinion, an opinion held by a lot of car nuts though. It used to be rear wheel drive for anything with a bit of power, so roughly small cars went front, bigger cars rear. But front has huge packaging advantages and cost savings in using same platforms so more and more cars went front, and they developed lots of aids and tricky bits to make it work well. The issue is torque steer, you need front wheels to steer you, but when you apply power the torque tugs the wheel away from where is wants to go. You can feel it in Amy front driver if you power it when turning sharp, especially at low speeds. It corrupts the steering, and introduces under steer where car wants to go straight when your turning it. I raced minis years back and we could be steering hard but going no where near as sharp. Rear drive leaves front wheels alone to get on with steering, rears do the pushing. It's a different feeling and can introduce oversteer where back wants to slide out on you, though only occasionally and at stupid speed does it. Steering feels better, more alive, unspoilt. In a big car especially it feels nicer, more natural. Some makers only ever used rear as they said it was only way to make drivers cars, though now even bmw make a small family oriented front driver as it is more practical and lets face it, small people mover buyers don't care. Rear wheel drive takes up more room. So for me, any bigger car is just nicer to drive in rear drive. And I'm not alone judging by the stupid amount of motoring mags I read, and talking to friends into cars. It's not as clear cut as I make it, nothing is ever that simple, and there are some very clever special diffs and steering bits that can make a front driver handle a lot of power these days, but that's the guts of it. It's a nicer feeling, better steering, easier to handle at speedy corners, thing. No doubt some will not share this opinion, and I am not knocking good front drivers, but in your case Toyota made the same sized Camry that is front wheel drive, and I would much rather yours. And don't worry Daryl, I've been around a long long time and have been car crazy from a toddler, I just started here as I'm laid up a bit awaiting surgery so have too much time on my hands.
Top gear explanation as to why rear drive oversteer is better.
beetle18,
Mar 2, 4:00am
Wow! Thank you. I see a whole new future as a petrol head opening up for me. blow this school teaching malarkey.
mugenb20b,
Mar 2, 12:43pm
You just answered your own question. I don't get torque steer out of my heavy car with a V6 engine either and goes around corners very well too. I guess it all comes down to chassis design (not that Hyundai is any good at it. ), I prefer rwd for weight distribution and towing.
tamarillo,
Mar 2, 12:53pm
Hi mugen, is that as in hot Honda mugen? Now there's torque steer! Yes they do manage to design it out, but in doing so it tends to corrupt steering, dull it rather. This isn't a problem, merely something that some drivers dislike. I just sold my 95 Fairmont, it had better, livelier, more communicative steering than the new company cars I'd been running, despite its tall tyres. And fwd can be great fun too so let's not start a war here, never driven a mugen version but do like my Hondas.
tamarillo,
Mar 2, 12:59pm
Is it? Generally fwd cars tend to understeer and rear drive cars tend towards oversteer. Do youndispute that? If so prey tell. As for torque steer, as said it's well and truly ironed out with clever diffs, electronics etc in many cases. But turn these electronics or whatever off and you can make any fwd show some torque steer if you try, it's physics not fairy tales. And with just 97 hp I'm assuming yours is not the latest and greatest machine so doubt is won't have trick diffs and electrics. Maybe your not trying hard enough? If a 50hp mini can do it. And why the thing about my coon, am I missing something? I thought coon was a very nasty racial insult that shouldn't be used. But then I'm an old fart so maybe it means my mans tool, though I'm worried how you know how long it is? Are you an ex having a dig maybe?
gedo1,
Mar 2, 1:51pm
Wow! That's quick! Using the AA travelling times app I see it states Taupo to Napier as being about 142 kilometers and then says should take about 1 hour and 55 minutes. Then I thought perhaps you meant Taupo to Eskdale. AA again which shows 123 kilometer and 1 hour and 35 minutes. So you HAVE got a quick little Peugeot, ay? Wonder what the average km/h would have to be for that journey?
gedo1,
Mar 2, 1:59pm
You say you can do it in 1 hour and 10 minutes. must see if I can work out the average speed. might be interesting!
gedo1,
Mar 2, 2:09pm
Wow! That's an average speed for the whole distance of at least 105 kilometres an hour! Given the nature of some of the twisties and the hills you must be doing phenomenal speeds on the straight bits at the Taupo end! I, too, know the road well. Have ridden it with other bikers in the past and enjoyed it immensely. But average of 105km/h? wow!
gedo1,
Mar 2, 2:16pm
Did a test just last week. Northcote Auckland to Wellsford at about 4:30am in a 3.5 litre very late model car - Japanese. Never got held up by other vehicles as there was little to no traffic. Tried to maintain the speed limits all the way and did not exceed them at any time. Mostly 100km/h with some 80km/h; 60km/h and 70km/h posted limits. Average speed - from good GPS - showed as 83 kilometres an hour. Not anywhere near as twisty as Taupo-Napier but certainly not straight roads. Just shows you, eh, the Japanese still have a lot to learn form the Euros. Wotcher reckon?
smac,
Mar 2, 2:19pm
Hmm. top speed ~105ish except when passing and not shagging about on the corners will do that trip in 1hr30. 1hr 10 isn't about cornering it's about lifting that top speed.
smac,
Mar 2, 2:31pm
You hitting on me?!
I have a friend who has done it in 47 mins and I have done it in an hour. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just pointing out those times are pushing both boundaries. As gedo has pointed out you must average over 100kph to hit those times, so to emphasis the cornering is. perhaps taking liberties.
tamarillo,
Mar 2, 2:31pm
If you read you'll see I also drive moderns, including brand new vf commodore v8 and accord euro in last two years, travelled South Island extensively in both. Also sold a pug 205 gti 1.9 few months back and mate, if you can't get your pug to torque steer or understeer you ever are not trying hard enough or don't know what it is your looking for. Try a wet open car park. That where you will notice it. Now I see you're in a 407 which had variuos tricks to tame understeer, so yes you're going to have to induce it. My point was they TEND to understeer and torque steer and the adaptation of steering and suspension ect tends to make the steering rather dull. This isn't my fairy story mate, do more reading. What have bmw steadfastly stayed rwd (2 series accepted) and Mercedes, and Lexus, and almost every single sports car you can mention. Even Honda, Mazda, Toyota still went rwd for sports cars. Do you think they have it wrong and you know better. Suggest you do some googling and learn more. See if there's some racing action of fwd v Rwd. There's a great video exploring it all with tiff nedell on an old top gear programme, and he uses a pug as the understeer sample! You might disagree but you'll find my summary isn't my imagination.
richardmayes,
Mar 2, 2:32pm
The question is a bit like asking if a fighter jet is better than a rescue helicopter.
RWD if you want to go fast, have a lot of power, and already know exactly where you're going.
For the ability to corner fast, change lines mid-way through a bend, feel when you're approaching the full limits of the tyres' adhesion, balance the car and steer with the throttle. even in the wet, on a road you are unfamiliar with. the right little FWD car can be a much better friend to you though!
IIRC a few years ago there was a class of 2L saloon car racing here in NZ, and the front runners were all Mitsubishi EVO 5/6 or Honda Integras, not a RWD car in sight.
gedo1,
Mar 2, 2:33pm
Clarify for you. 105km/h is the AVERAGE speed - not a constant speed. Thus if you have to drop down to await a passing opportunity behind a truck on a hill and you can only do 50kmh at that time, you will have to travel way beyond 100km/h to make it back to get your average speed. Checking the AA time for that trip would have the average at about 77km/h I think. So 105km/h average is quick. So, yep, smac - it isn't the corners, other traffic and overtaking so much as it is the high speeds that have to be reached to make up time "lost".
smac,
Mar 2, 2:36pm
Ya I understand what you posted. My comments (in that post) were real world experiences. i.e. not overly speeding or messing about you can expect to hit around 1:30 (depending on where you measure from of course).
Implying you can hit 1:10 without really speeding is of course bollocks.
gedo1,
Mar 2, 2:38pm
. and anyway (lol) 105km/h at any time is "speeding"
smac,
Mar 2, 2:43pm
pfft ;)
Interesting comparison: Palmy North to Welly you can expect to average low 70's for the trip. Lot's of small 50/70 zones, plus of course traffic. Napier to PN is more like high 80's, even over 90 if traffic is light. Edit: oh but back on topic: rear versus front makes SFA difference driving on public roads unless you're being an absolute numpty.
tamarillo,
Mar 2, 3:04pm
Ok, let's back track, I was asked why I prefered rwd. Mostly I prefer it because you USUALLY get better steering with more feel and less corruption. I didn't say everyone is going around under or over steering, I said that is the tendency of the 2 formats. That's physics.mlook at them on ice, or gravel if you can't see it. The pug 407 is a damn good car, and did a very good job of eliminating understeer, but it did it with esp and other tricks. Your pug has electronic nanny controlling the front wheels and limiting understeer. Pug also, by all reports, did a fine job with steering. The pint is that with rwd the steering is left alone to steer. It doesn't need trick diffs, suspension joint, electronics to stop the wheel torque steering and the front under steering. Might need them on the back but your not steering the back wheels. Hence, generally, sporting, drivers cars lean to rwd, especially when they have power to burn. Take your pug into a wet field and turn electronic nanny off if you can, it'll understeer alright. There an Internet full of videos of under and over steering cars. We managed to turn electroninc traction control off on an Alfa 147 cause it was a stupid system that cut power too quicly, but boy did that wheel tug and pull with it off. This is in Nelson so our fun roads are tight twisty 2nd 3rd gear stuff that highlights these a lot. Your trip is mostly good open road sweepers if memory serves me well. But that's wasn't the question. Why do I prefer rwd, especially in bigger cars? Better more communicative unspoilt steering. In OP case the direct comparison is the Camry, and yes I've used them, a lot, as rentals, and the steering is dull, lifeless, horrible. I'm guessing the OPs new mark V will have much nicer steering and feel. Over out and the rest.
tamarillo,
Mar 2, 3:10pm
That was great racing. I recall when the first golf GTI came to pukekohe endurance race and how much quicker it could corner than the then still racing chargers etc. want till rhe M3 came a rwd got the upper handle. Those integras were great cars.
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