Not so much thinking about new buyers, more the 2nd hand market.
It really doesn't matter if a manufacturer introduces the absolute best thing since.forever.they HAVE to take into account how it will be driven in the real world, otherwise they just gonna hurt themselves (reputation etc).
thejazzpianoma,
Sep 12, 4:14am
Not having a go, but why on earth did whoever who was responsible for spending millions of dollars on Ambulances (or at least hundreds of thousands locally) not do any basic research!
This should have come up time and again when investigating things like service costs, economy, maintenance intervals and if not then, at least on the test drive.
At the risk of sounding like passing the buck it sounds like a failure of the organisation buying them more than anything.
smac,
Sep 12, 4:16am
I find this intriguing.
Just to make sure I've got it right - are we talking about DSG boxes! And is the issue the fact that while sitting still (in gear) you're basically doing that same as sitting in gear with the clutch in, in a manual! If that's not right can somebody clarify! ta'
thejazzpianoma,
Sep 12, 4:18am
While I do see your point, I have little sympathy. If buying secondhand people should be doing even more research and taking extra care to check things out. PLUS it should be obvious on the test drive.
Its simply unreasonable to expect to buy a vehicle and not have to know anything about its operation, maintenance etc. At minimum a secondhand buyer if not astute enough to realise whether a vehicle has a regular auto or an automated manual should read the handbook.
I realise many don't, but that's their problem.
A companies reputation is more likely to be hurt by the poor fuel economy or performance from not using new technology. Just look at Toyota, the Hiace is finished because of that.
thejazzpianoma,
Sep 12, 4:24am
Not necessarily DSG transmissions, they should be slipped into neutral but are generally more robust by design than the others. Also, VW was much more cautious about introducing them into commercial vehicles and I think all commercial DSG's have "hill hold" and other safety mechanisms (obviously in a light vehicle its less of a problem). Its exceedingly rare to replace a clutch pack early on a DSG in general.
Mostly with the van's and other manufacturers its more a "selespeed" style system. Often literally exactly the same transmission as in the manual version but with a controller and actuators to operate the clutch and shifter for you.
And yes, you are right when gear and not moving they are sitting there with the clutch in.
Remember, unlike the DSG its usually pretty obvious when you drive it that it's not a regular auto. (slower shift, different style of shifter, feeling the torque in the gears more etc)
thejazzpianoma,
Sep 12, 4:28am
Incidentally, the same goes for some CVT's too. Some pop themselves into neutral to avoid excessive wear some should be popped into neutral manually. Its another big reason why some CVT's fail early.
Its just another of many things people should read the owners manual to find out about.
EDIT, Another thought for you, if someone is stupid enough to buy a secondhand van and not read the manual or research the transmission. If they end up with a regular auto chances are they won't service it as required and wind up with an even more expensive mess than if they just burnt out the clutch on an automated manual. At least those are usually not end of the world to replace, its just a regular clutch after all (although may be a bit dearer being dual mass flywheel or dual clutch)
I am yet to come across a Hyundai van driver that has given any thought at all to servicing the auto in their van.
smac,
Sep 12, 5:10am
I don't think it's about stupidity. I think it's about car people assuming that everybody out there is a car person.
The 'non car people' I know wouldn't give a second thought to how they should or shouldn't change gear. They would be aware they had an auto because it didn't have a clutch, so would drive it like one. Any more information than that would get a blank stare.
Whenever I'm thinking about stuff like this I think "what would my mother think". The answer is she knows the difference between an auto, and a manual, and that's about it, yet she would know more than a lot of car buyers out there.
thejazzpianoma,
Sep 12, 6:14am
I do understand your point of view. However, it's a crying shame to not implement fantastic technology just because people can't be bothered or don't understand the importance of reading the handbook.
The focus needs to be on getting people into the habit of engaging their brains rather than spoon feeding them everything.
It simply costs too much, socially, technologically, environmentally and financially. I am not just talking about cars here, this nanny state "wipe your bottom for you" business is fatally flawed.
Just making playgrounds "safe" and supervising children to much is already causing some serious developmental issues in children that is now being found out to cause real problems later in life. (Basically they can't assess risk for themselves).
BTW, for what its worth, my mother would read the handbook and if there was no handbook she would be asking about maintenance etc and it would come up.
She might even notice enough difference in operation to prompt the question. Shecan drive left hand drive, paddle shift (yip she had a Stilo Abarth), hill start their manual Motorhome, pretty much if it has wheels she can drive it and not break it.
Is she a car person!
No (well as close to no as you can get in our family), while she does appreciate a nice car (like anyone) really she would be happy with anything that get's her where she wants to go. What's different is she has that "think for yourself" attitude that comes with the right kind of life experience. Basically what the kids who grow up with the "safe" playgrounds don't tend to have.
BTW, not slagging off your Mother, we have others in the family that don't possess this trait too and the world is slowly saturating with more. That's the trouble.
smac,
Sep 12, 6:27am
mmmmmmm.I think you're a wee bit off track. These same 'non car people' would have existed 20 years ago, or 30, or whenever it was you were still allowed to play bullrush in school ;)
It's just a familiarity thing, or interest even. They have other priorities.
The thing is, rather than expect people used to driving autos to suddenly change how they drive (what they still consider to be an auto), why not implement a wee bit more tech to solve that issue. Actually with start-stop systems becoming mainstream I guess they have.
thejazzpianoma,
Sep 12, 6:41am
You are correct, they have implemented more tech to help. That said though, I am glad they have not "overdone it" or held up progress to do so.
It would be so easy to pander say to the knuckle dragger types who complain about dual mass flywheels, and send us back to agricultural gearbox's. Instead they have made them a little more robust (as much as is practical) and left it at that. People will learn in time.
I disagree about the bullrush generation though. When my Mother grew up if you didn't check your oil and change your plugs and points you expected trouble. I think that was pretty universal. I am sure there were still plenty of idiots around but given the unforgiving nature of Morris Minors and the like I think they would have learned the value of maintenance and understanding pretty quickly.
Its not necessarily about being "techy" and understanding the workings of the car (My mother probably wouldn't be able to tell a crankshaft from a camshaft). Its about having respect for technology and things mechanical and knowing to ask questions or do your research so you treat it right.
Not just assuming the manufacturer has somehow made it maintenance free and foolproof to operate. (like the wiped bottom generation might expect)
smac,
Sep 12, 6:55am
I still think you're assuming some curiousity that just doesn't exist (about cars, for some(.
If manufacturers has fitted some sort of completely new.something. Then yeah, you could expect people to do some figuring or asking before using.
But the new thing they fitted is completely invisible. It looks like their old auto, it smells like it, drives like it. Except they're supposed to magically ask "hey can I leave this in drive like I do my last car!" There's nothing to prompt that question. THAT is the manufacturers problem/issue, not the end users fault.
thejazzpianoma,
Sep 12, 7:01am
Except it dosn't. and perhaps that's where I haven't made it clear enough. Aside from a very obvious difference to drive. does this look like an ordinary auto to you!
Using Fiat as an example they have done the following: 1. Deliberately not called it automatic 2. Made the shifter work entirely differently to an auto 3. Installed a warning system in case you overheat the clutch 4. Produced a separate concise owners manual specifically for the transmission
Realistically. what else do you want them to do!
(actually have a read of that page, there are excerpts from Fiat which show how deliberate they have been in explaining things wherever they can)
smac,
Sep 12, 7:04am
umm.implement a system that can't be damaged by operating it the same as you operate another car!
thejazzpianoma,
Sep 12, 7:08am
Because (initially at least) that is not technically possible or economical to do so.
That is where you have to draw the line, cater to those who want to ignore the manual and everything Fiat has done to make it obvious.
Or
Offer great new technology.
Personally, if people ignore everything (Including the loud buzzer and messages) and still get into trouble they shouldn't be driving. and can go and buy a Hyundai or Toyota.
Realistically they are unlikely to get the Fiat into gear in the first place anyway!
smac,
Sep 12, 7:12am
Sounds like a real winner ;)
I really don't care what they do, or don't do. All I'm saying is perhaps they should have seen the issue coming. If not, I think it's saying more about the manufacturers than it is about the drivers.
thejazzpianoma,
Sep 12, 7:21am
That they are happy for a certain segment of the market to buy Toyota's and Hyundai's!
Joking aside, that is actually what I would do. Make things as logical as was efficient to do so and then if I lost the segment of customers who still couldn't figure it out I would be quite happy. In my opinion they would be the painful ones with lots of warranty claims no matter what I did.
thejazzpianoma,
Sep 12, 7:25am
BTW, you can have last word on it if you want. As fun as it has been we are really only going around in circles and have been for some time.
smac,
Sep 12, 7:41am
.no YOU hang up.
ceebee2,
Sep 13, 1:01am
Jazz, we asked the company the same thing and rather than buy one and trial they bought a fleet of them.exactly the same with almost every other model over the years despite the troops begging them to trial a few first.
lasertech,
Sep 13, 2:14am
What ever one you go for , come to us and we will re-do the ecu software for much better performance, economy and drivability, we do loads of campervans from the early auto-tragic fords to the very latest ones. Look for 25% torque increase and you have a different vehicle!
skyblue17,
Sep 13, 2:35am
Is this kind of self promotion allowable here.! I'd have thought it outside TOU.
msigg,
Sep 13, 7:25am
I suggest you go and test drive and see what you think,a few more kw here or there is nothing, there is a speed limit and that is what will govern you, Long lasting engines and trans are what you want, Talk to some of the fleet buyers, rental companies see what they use, They are running a business and can't afford vehicles off the road. They should know. Good luck.
richardmayes,
Sep 13, 8:34am
Don't pander to the knuckle-draggers!
If your hand's bigger than your face, you're a genius. Quick, check right now!
richardmayes,
Sep 13, 8:49am
I rented a six-year-old VW LT35 campervan last year, it was in "Britz" livery but you could see where the old Maui stickers used to be, so it must have been considered a pretty glam campervan when it was brand new.I forget how many km it had done; it hadn't quite been to the moon and back, but it had clearly done a few laps of the south island.
There were a couple of quirks to master. the flywheel was almost non-existant, first gear was in the wrong place and the gearchange gate was very narrow from left to right, so it was easy to stall it by attempting to take off from stationary in 3rd gear. and when you stall it a galaxy of lights appears on the dash, and you have to turn the ingnition completely off before it will let you re-start. scary if you're rolling across an intersection at 3km/h!
Once you figure all that out, it was a brilliant little truck to drive, in good weather it would happily hum along at 104km/h and it used a surprisingly little amount of fuel considering what a big tall wind block it was.
Really the only thing wrong with it was, the driver and one passenger get to sit up the front, anyone else had to sit in two horrible little passenger seats way at the back corners where the ride was extremely bouncy and chunderous.
I would get a manual one, (a) because I enjoy my driving and (b) because I'm enough of a knuckle dragger that I would not want to own any sort of high-tech european automatic transmission at higher mileages.
I've never driven a Transit, although I remember my Dad driving a brand new one in the early 1990s, and cursing it for being just hopelessly underpowered.
thejazzpianoma,
Sep 14, 3:03am
First we need to know if its a 2.1 or a 2.3 there is no 2.2 as far as I am aware and the 2.1 and 2.3 are very different beasties.
With regard to your other question, drive it how you think works best for you. I have not driven Mercedes transmission only various Fiat's and VW's. I drive each one differently depending on how good the auto mode is (some are really intuitive and do a better job than me others are not). Some I even drive semi manually, leaving them in auto but hooking down the gears earlier as I slow to increase engine braking. I do the same thing in some when passing depending on how efficiently they kick down.
Either way you will find manual operation very useful with the boat and slow steep inclines etc.
Since the public registrations are closed, you must have an invite from a current member to be able to register and post in this thread.
Have an account? Login here.