Toyota has been moving back to chain-timed engines with some of its models. Are they any good! Or just the same as belt-timed ones really!
thejazzpianoma,
Oct 17, 8:15pm
Many manufacturers have been making the change. Its more about marketing really, the idea is to pretend they are as "maintenance free" as possible since consumers seem to get really excited about that sort of thing.
Realistically though, the first owners might get away with a bit less maintenance but chains still don't tend to last that well and often need replacing at higher km's at a higher cost than doing a cambelt.
Plus, you have other parts like waterpumps which tend to get neglected on chain driven cars as they are not done at cambelt time.
Timing chains also take a slight edge off your economy too.
Personally, I would not go out of my way to buy either cambelt or chain driven, they both have pro's and cons, just get which ever engine suits you best for other reasons.
With more specific regards to Toyota, its their Diesels and Direct Injection petrol engines that you want to avoid. The old technology petrol's they make (while not very efficient) are at least reliable.
Personally though, I don't see the point in paying premium money for a vehicle that is well out of date. In other words, if you buy a Toyota you don't tend to get much car for your money these days.
oemaudio,
Oct 18, 12:11am
By the waysomeone from Toyota once ran over Jazz's pet. He has been very bitter since and finds a little venting on a relatively anonymous message board the best way to expel his rage. He does however have a relevant point about servicing water pumps.
djrandomguy,
Oct 18, 12:30am
from the horses mouth [west auckland mechanics] new toyota engines have for a long while now been nowhere near as trouble free as days of old, the new king of reliability is the mazda 3. this opinion seems commonplace.i don;t care either way as both of them bore me to tears.
thejazzpianoma,
Oct 18, 1:15am
So you feel Toyota's D4 Direct injection petrol and modern diesel engines are good with regard to reliability then!
kimbo88,
Oct 18, 3:09am
I can comment on the 6 cylinder D4 (1JZFSE) - have got one in a Mark 2 and haven't had any problems with it whatsoever.I run premium petrol in it, which that series of 6 cylinder engines require, as I gather that some people trying to "economise" and run them on 91 have caused some of their own problems.They prefer 98 to even 95 - and basically they are designed to run on 98 in Japan - so there you go. They also respond well to being driven a bit harder from time to time, with a decent good run on the open road and not "nana-ing" them.So far the run I have had from it has been great - and they are quite economical for a 2.5 litre 6 cylinder too.
edangus,
Oct 18, 3:14am
I prefer chain. nothing like a good solid rattle to let you know its time to change.
kazbanz,
Oct 18, 3:34am
barrylarry-you will actually find that toyota from 2001 on have almost totally moved to cam chain timed engines in anything from 2400cc and smaller. Ignoring the comments by the local eurotroll there is a VERY good reason for going back to a camchain and that is that toyota have introduced VVTi engines which basicly means the car runs economically when just cruising along but gets power when needed-Ignoring for a moment that it is clearly documented that they last at least 4 times longer than a belt. An interesting point raised was that water pumps need replacing which is a fair comment EXCEPT that its been noticed that the factory pumps are lasting a lot longer than they used to due to quality lubricants/anti corrrosives being used in the cooling systems. So In my personal experience the chain drive engines are an improvement. Incidently-watching the jap auction sites Im every day seeing Toyota VVTi engined cars for sale with 200000-400k on the clock so they arent falling to bits as some would suggest
thejazzpianoma,
Oct 18, 3:54am
Eurotroll here, Please can you explain! What does VVTi technology have to do with running a chain!
Also. you seem to only be counting complete failures of chains as a need to change. You have forgotten the bit about stretched chains causing a reduction in power/economy.
Oh, and how do you know that these cars for sale with 200'000 - 400'000km on the clock have not had their chains changed (possibly several times even) already!
extrayda,
Oct 18, 8:24am
This is why modern cars are crap :-) Old technology = chain - lasts for ages and ages.Rattles when needing changing.Simple.generally non interference anyway. Water pumps externally mounted - when they need changing, 4 bolts and a couple of hose clips and it's off, reverse procedure to fit new one. Fancy tools = socket set, screwdriver. Job done. Oil change once in a while, new points and plugs once in a while - all good :-) I certainly needed to spend a lot less maintaining my old cars than my current newer ones (mid 90's + so still old for some people).
OK, I am ignoring the safety aspects of newer vehicles, and the better fuel economy.Most people find a steady small increase (e.g. fuel bill) much easier to cope with than a $1000+ plus hit.
extrayda,
Oct 18, 8:26am
The only thing that really makes me have a 'newer' vehicle is that I *LOVE* air conditioning (on cold all year round).Opening the window in an old car just doesn't quite get there :-)plus the general lack of rusting that older cars tend to suffer from.
johnf_456,
Oct 18, 8:32am
Hilarious
ianalice1,
Oct 18, 8:48am
I prefer push-rods, no problem with them.
Easy to fix, or they was 30 years ago.
Can't even change a spark plug now and have trouble finding them.
skin1235,
Oct 18, 10:06am
back a few years we could clip almost any engine into any frame, a few hours to fit it and away you go they were basic, some were o/h cam too, some even turbo'd, then came the ecu controlled injection, cam angle, spark advance, air flow volume etc etc, there isn't the scope today to transplant a say V8 into a frame of your choice without having to have a donor loom and all the tricky bits to go with it, even if you could get the legals sorted to run it on the road I think the youth today have certainly missed out on something - an extra 40hp is done with a chip by an electrician, we used to do it by cam grind and moving valve and ignition phasing, build a decent exhaust that allowed the engine to breathe and if need be a new wire to the throttle
skin1235,
Oct 18, 10:17am
not too many today know the symptoms of worn carbs, the knack of rejetting and why rejet, or when to rejet, the tricks of advancing a cam 1/2 a tooth etc this thread started about cam chain V belt, I have to vote chain, all the way, have never been able to see any advantage in belt - ever - cost more, break more, damage more when they break, cost a hell of a lot more to maintain and repair too pushrods! they had their place, and still do a fine job, thers also many a chain o/h cam running way past expected kms too, contrary to some of the comments above they are not expensive to replace when they do need doing, sorry jazz cannot agree re stretched chain economy lost scenario - if you've lost economy to a noticeable degree it won't be solely chain stretch thats causing it
skin1235,
Oct 18, 10:29am
traditionally the kids got a socket set, a collection of ring and open enders, a feeler gauge etc either under the tree at 14 or birthday if closer to midyear - and they were expected to use them cos dad was not going to be the mechanic under their cars come the time they were 16 sons and daughters but now they need to have computers and a degree in physics just to open the hood - and there is nothing under there they can fiddle with anyway
kazbanz,
Oct 18, 8:38pm
Clutching at straws again As you do with your eurotrash cars LOOK IT UP.Look for documented cases where toyota VVTi engines have had cam chain failure.cam chain replacementor where economy has been affected by cam chain stretch.
mrfxit,
Oct 18, 8:52pm
Seen &heard of hundreds of cam belts breaking under 150K or slightly over Seen & heard of 2 (had to think hard to remember that many) cam chains breaking at around 600k + 40 odd years in the industry (in 1 form or another)
Single & double row chains . Yes the single row are cheaper but rattle sooner. The biggest extra expense & hassle withchains is that often the guides need replacing at the same time.
No difference for access for some engines with chain or belt , 6 of 1 & half dozen of the other. Some are simply PIGS to work on & some not, either way.
Direct drive Cam gears, life span depends a lot on engine tune & oil changes but typically don't give any hassles apart from noise
intrade,
Oct 18, 9:00pm
vvti engines are not so economical and are set up wrongly in my opinion not enough torque in lower rpm rather have a dacia 1.2 liter that got 115nm torque in low rpm range just like a older 1.6 ford diesel engine for example you can drive em like it was a diesel as where you be stalling the vvti 1.5 from the likes of corollas and only get good torque past 4200rpm
mrfxit,
Oct 18, 9:02pm
Yep sure is the truth I won't touch most modern cars these days, because I don't have the paper degree's in automotive electronics or the computer gear/tools to deal with them. Access alone if often a 1 hour job to find the engine. 4 hours to remove the starter off my Atessa + skin/blood donations 15 minutes for the same job on my Hilux + have a bourbon.
mrfxit,
Oct 18, 9:03pm
Well know but often ignore fact MOST modern petrol engines NEED reasonable revs to find any reasonable power . REGARDLESS of the spec's
sifty,
Oct 18, 9:05pm
This is why I love my summer car. I actually enjoy tinkering with it too.
trdbzr,
Oct 18, 11:58pm
Ask for facts and look at how he disappears.
oemaudio,
Oct 19, 12:30am
+1 Probably fixing his Fiat/VW, the Toyota owners are all going on a long weekend with the extra money they saved by not having a VW/Fiat.
rover79,
Oct 19, 12:58am
Chains arn't just coming back in are they, I have a Toyota Allex 2001 and I'm on the understanding that its chain drive. As for the torque in the low range of vvti engines, you only notice that if you plant the foot, If your doing that you're racing.
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