Are valves driven by a belt rather than a chain really that bad? It seems as long as you observe the recommended belt replacement interval then they're fine. What do people think?
Getting at a rattly chain would be more of a job than getting at a belt I would have thought.
daryl14,
Apr 22, 1:41am
People just freak out at having to spend up to $1500 for a cam belt job. that is all. It's like it's a totally unfair and unnessecary expense when the car doesnt go any different afterwards.
snoopy221,
Apr 22, 1:47am
Reality is older traditions would consider a chain as life long-and the thought of replacing a belt is foreign to them. Reality is the timing and ignition firing time variation with a worn chain is phenomenal. Hence modern chain drives with camshaft and crankshaft sensors HAVE to have the more expensive replacement than a belt.
motorboy2011,
Apr 22, 2:31am
A worn chain or associated gear is often MANY time more expensive to fix than a cam belt that's due.
budgel,
Apr 22, 2:45am
Agreed, but the car will probably have many more miles on it before it becomes neccessary. Generally if a second hand car has no timing chain noises, chances are there are lots more miles to be done before it does. Also you do get plenty of warning before it becomes major so the chance of catastrophic failure such as cambelt breakage on an interference engine is eliminated.
Having said all that, I have one vehicle of each type, and having a cambelt hasnt put me off buying any particular vehicle. I make sure it has been changed though!
thejazzpianoma,
Apr 22, 2:46am
People think what they are told to think. A log of our "Automotive logic" in this country is a reflection of decades of a used car industry that revolves pretty much entirely around Japanese used imports.
If you want we could go in to pages and pages of the psychology behind how this works. However in short, basically the public have come to believe the story's used to sell these used imports, even the motor trade is not unaffected (because they are humans too).
Chain driven vehicles are fantastic for used car dealers because they don't have to spend any money doing the timing belt change before sale. It's also one of the few "features" of a pool of vehicles that overall fell behind technology wise due to the Japanese economic meltdown.
You are exactly right melonhead, in a logical world, people would look at the "total cost of ownership" instead of isolating one or two things like timing belt cost. So they would be looking at the entire equation, something like, depreciation + service costs + fuel economy + likelyhood/cost of unexpected repairs.
Instead they are programmed just to look for a timing belt driven car and rarely give a second thought to that vehicle maybe using 50% more fuel than a better equipped competitor for the same price. The reality is they often trade saving an extra $150 a year on a timing belt service for a $1000 extra on their fuel bill.
People are not logical. The scariest thing though, is thanks to an inept education system, a huge number go through life not realising that they are programmed to be illogical so they don't/can't do anything to counter act the problem. This alone costs people far, far more over their lifetimes than much of what our school system holds as so very important. Even worse, it costs everyone in society whether they are a critical thinker or not, as all the important shared aspects of a society (Politics, regulation, the economy, jobs etc) all revolve around the lowest common denominator.
floscey,
Apr 22, 2:55am
When the owners have to pay for a chain kit replacement , they will wish they had a timing belt.
purple666,
Apr 22, 3:11am
Have owned and driven cars for more than 40yrs, never had a problem with a chain, have replaced (not always broken) half a dozen belts. Can only remember a couple of people ever having trouble with chains, know of heaps that have had to replace belts for one reason or another. Most of the chain cars were high mileage (2 or 3 times around the clock).
tamarillo,
Apr 22, 3:50am
Does feel safer with a chain as hardly ever hear of one going and stuffing engine, whereas stories of cambelts going are legendary. But Jazz is right, it's total ownership that's important. Known people to trade up to ever more economical model, but the saving is less than their payments. Not worth it unless old car need replacing anyway. It's also why I don't factor in gas economy hugely in my buying as I don't do many miles in my personal cars.
saxman99,
Apr 22, 4:00am
Neither here nor there for me, I just buy the 'right' vehicle for the job at hand. 4 cars here (all euro), 2 belt, 2 chain. Belts have been neither expensive nor difficult to change. Haven't had to touch any chain gear yet.
piperguy,
Apr 22, 4:13am
I had a Camry V6 that I took in for a belt job, the guy did the water pump as well but did not bleed the cooling system properly which then the next time I drove it, destroyed the engine. I would love to never have another belt driven engine as long as I live
melonhead1,
Apr 22, 4:20am
Thank you for your comments people. Its most fascinating.
dublo,
Apr 22, 4:49am
Our jazz pianist hit the nail on the head regarding illogical reasoning; when we looked for a modern car 5 years ago we decided on a 1998-2002 NZ-new Honda Accord. 4-cylinder basic models were about $14000 in the shops, but a low-km, 1 owner, immaculate, top of the line V6 was only $9500. I guess the lower prices for V6s is because of the perceived heavier fuel consumption and it may get 1 or 2 miles less per gallon (that shows my age!) than a 4-cylinder one, but we get a smoother, quieter car with much more power than we will ever need - and it will take a long time to spend that $4500 on the extra fuel!
thunderbolt,
Apr 22, 5:15am
So you blame the belt drive technology for an error the mechanic made? The same thing could have happened when the water pump was replaced on a chain drive engine.
bwg11,
Apr 22, 5:16am
First belt I came across was a Fiat 124 1400cc Coupe in the late 1960's. Seemed a great idea, cheap, quiet, hopefully reliable. With the low cost of production, many manufacturers followed suit, but really it is 70's technology and better avoided. Toyota tried belts for a while, the 4AGE was a particularly successful application, but Toyota reverted to chains to maintain reliability and reduce reoccurring service costs.
franc123,
Apr 22, 5:52am
I don't know where some of you get the idea that chain failure and noise are the main reason chain drive systems on modern engines need attention, its not. Chain stretch that causes synchronisation issues with crank and cam angle sensors, which then causes fault codes, check engine lights coming on, and in extreme cases random stalling, misfiring and even complete no start complaints. All of this tends to happen well before NVH or breakage problems occur and it can be difficult to detect without the use of adequate scan tools or scoping the sensor outputs. Its possible to need a chain replacement at as little as 90-120k, and its rare for the work to cost less than an average belt replacement.
stevo2,
Apr 22, 5:54am
Problem is that the people that complain about having to replace a cambelt are the same people that are unable to save the $1000 to get it done. For those people, a chain driven cam may be more suitable.
ladatrouble,
Apr 22, 5:56am
Modern chain engines aren't lasting as long as the earlier chain driven ones - GM V6, Nissan. They are much more complex to change too - we used to change chains on Mazda's and Mitzi's in the '70's by just pulling them through with the old chain, the tensioner was 2 bolts under a cover. simple as.
motorboy2011,
Apr 22, 6:13am
those same people run dirty oil with no changes that causes premature chain wear and stretch.
thejazzpianoma,
Apr 22, 6:17am
Not to mention overheating because the waterpump hasn't been changed by default etc.
The better solution IMO is to educate people rather than simply cater to the lowest common denominator. It might seem innocuous at first (suggesting a chain driven vehicle etc for this reason), but society as a whole is so much better off when people are encouraged to use their brains rather than being catered for.
By all means support and educate, but help people make wise decisions rather than trying to make them comfortable as they continue to dig a hole for themselves.
I have actually wondered at times about starting a non profit organisation with a basic workshop that helps anyone interested to enjoy a modern reliable vehicle for as little money as possible and as little outlay as possible.
The idea being to cover everything from buying wisely, how to maintain a vehicle, how to get affordable finance (if needed), how to budget for maintenance and repairs etc.
It wouldn't likely be easy though, not because of the mechanics of setting this up, but because it's such a shock to so many people to make such a drastic change in attitude when society isn't geared that way.
franc123,
Apr 22, 6:18am
Ohhhh yes! By golly that seems to aggravate things, especially with the tensioners and guides.
differentthings,
Apr 22, 6:38am
If buying a new car it doesn't really matter Cam belts put people off once the car is gets old. Once the car reaches the $1000-$4000 price range it gets pretty hard to justify spending $500-$1500 doing the cam belt.
piperguy,
Apr 22, 7:12am
My point was that if I had a chain drive engine I wouldn't have been in messing with the water pump in the first place!
wellyguynz,
Apr 22, 7:23am
And yes as with a chain you would have replaced the water pump,
a.woodrow,
Apr 22, 7:24am
I've seen late model chain driven engines fail with little to no warning, including one job that was close on 10k for a lateish model diesel ute. Don't go thinking chaindriven is the be all end all because it isn't, there are a lot of manufacturers who are having issues with chain driven engines. Cambelts are a guaranteed cost but that can be a whole lot better than replacing chains because they are stretched, or dealing with the aftermath of a broken chain
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