Joining the mta requires that you agree not to do or say anything that brings another member into disrepute. and to direct any complaints, whether about yourself or another mta member, to the mta. If you are a member of the mta they will fight your battles for you.
I wouldn't bother taking their advice.
supernova2,
Nov 6, 3:33pm
Exactly the MTA is the association (or old boys club) of people in the motor trade.They would be only interested in looking after their members, after all its the members who pay the fees which pay their wages etc.Hence the stupid WOF ads on the TV - onl;y trying to keep the work flow for the members.
Tiggles - Disputes TRibunal - you cant have a lawyer and neither can they so therefore only cost is the filing fee which is about $50 (from memory).
Hopefiully this is an easy way to understand how the clutch system works.If you had 2 hypodermic syringes connected together with a hose and one was full and the other empty think of the full one as the clutch master cylinder.When you push in the plunger the fluid will flow to the empty syringe (clutch slave cylinder) and then push that plunger out.Thats what happens when you push down on the clutch pedal.When you let the pedal out the spring in the clutch pressure plate pushes back on the slave cylinder and so returns the fluid to the master cylinder.As you can see there is a fixed amount of fluid running back and forwards.So simple question how can the slave cylinder move any further than the movement caused by the master cylinder!Simple answer it cant.QED.
tiggles2,
Nov 6, 3:42pm
quick update - yes have rung Roy - he knew nothing about job so has gone to investigate MTA - right dam can some B/S their way out of stuff - communication between mechanic who did job and MTA is that now it was the slave that seized causing the fork to move. Nothing to do with master as it continually moves and slave does not they said when new clutch put in slave could not cope with self adjusting - over adjusted and seized knocking fork off pivot and seizing release bearing that only made a line mark on pressure plate When asked why did not check slave - answer how far do you go EXCUSE ME - I asked for new clutch kit and all clutch parts to be checked / replaced if need be at original job - so now awaiting response from Roy, parts (and they had better arrive) then back to MTA if not herd anything. If not happy advise small claims court Your thoughts chaps please as am now really ***** off. If I am wrong fine but I asked and relied on their knowledge TIA
tiggles2,
Nov 6, 3:48pm
Supernova - MTA -Alan - said the slave was worn inside and that is why it seized - then said piston went into an area of the cylinder it does not usually go in due to new clutch. He said I would have felt a heavier clutch - which I did - which is classic of failing slave I feel very *mushroom*no not giving up or going away but the cr@p getting tossed at me ridiculous. And getting a word in edge ways is like catching the ice drips in the sun. Ok rant over - I understand what everyone has said and the logic. To me its almost like they have read this thread (probably have) and gone off to find a possible way the slave can knock the fork off Coffee time
supernova2,
Nov 6, 4:51pm
So are they therefore saying that yours was the one in one billion slave that packed up cause if not then they consider such an occurance to be normal and therefore they should have checked.Oops didnt so still their fault.Now to folllow their line of thought they should also have replaced the master cylinder as the new pressure plate will be excerting more return force (resistance)on the slave cylinder which through the principles of physics (which we dont need to go into) will put more stress on the little well worn rubber seal in the master cylinder. While it is true that as the clutch plate wears out the slave cylinder piston will operate in a minutely different part of the cylinder IMHO the slave would have to be totally munted to seize and if that was going to happen it should have happen the first time the clutch was operated not after several operations.Think about how many times the clutch operated bewteen the time the gearbox was refitted from the first job and the time it failed.Its probably hundreds.
If the slave was that munted it should have been replaced on thge first job.remember they are now telling you that that was a likely consequence of fitting the new clutch.
Have a read of Part 4 of the Consumers Guarantee Act.
IMHO the more the garage says the deeper the hole they are digging themselves - hell if they keep it up you will be able to use the hole as landfill for your horsey waste!
So are they therefore saying that yours was the one in one billion slave that packed up cause if not then they consider such an occurance to be normal and therefore they should have checked.Oops didnt so still their fault.Now to folllow their line of thought they should also have replaced the master cylinder as the new pressure plate will be excerting more return force (resistance)on the slave cylinder which through the principles of physics (which we dont need to go into) will put more stress on the little well worn rubber seal in the master cylinder. While it is true that as the clutch plate wears out the slave cylinder piston will operate in a minutely different part of the cylinder IMHO the slave would have to be totally munted to seize and if that was going to happen it should have happen the first time the clutch was operated not after several operations.Think about how many times the clutch operated bewteen the time the gearbox was refitted from the first job and the time it failed.Its probably hundreds.
If the slave was that munted it should have been replaced on thge first job.remember they are now telling you that that was a likely consequence of fitting the new clutch.
Have a read of Part 4 of the Consumers Guarantee Act.
IMHO the more the garage says the deeper the hole they are digging themselves - hell if they keep it up you will be able to use the hole as landfill for your horsey waste!
Tiggles, you really need a good honest, competent (and non-mta member) mechanic, to actually look at the old parts, and the truck.
In my opinion, once the arm is in place and operating, it should be almost impossible for it to fall off it's pivot, even if the slave cylinder did jamb up. If the bearing did seize, it could possibly spin on the lever and rip the bearing off the lever, but not the lever off it's pivot I wouldn't think. If it did do either though there should be visible evidence. which might require the gearbox being taken out to find. Taking the box out is not really a very big job though. It could be worth getting that done by someone if you really want to get to the truth. There is a way that the master cylinder could have caused this problem. The fluid has to return to the master cylinders reservoir through a small hole which only just gets uncovered when the pedal is right up. If anything blocks the tiny hole, or if the pedal adjustment comes loose and vibrates itself a bit too tight, the fluid does not return and when you use the pedal several times it works like a one way pump which pushes the slave cylinder too far out. If that happened, and the bearing went too far, it's just remotely possible that it could get hit by the pressure plate in the clutch and cause a problem similar to the bearing seizing. It would be unlikely to happen just once though, so if it's all ok now it probably not the problem. they should have checked the master cylinder after the second breakdown though.
The only way you are going to really know the truth here is to get all the parts, and perhaps the clutch setup, which will require the box out, inspected by someone looking for damage from the second incident.
I'm not in the mta because I don't like the concept behind it, and I don't like seeing people getting conned and ripped off either. I'm sure there will be some mechanics near you that would be quite willing to do the work I have suggested, either for free or with payment out of the eventual refund you should get.
Oh, the disputes hearing, you or they can have a lawyer represent them as far as I know. You are both allowed to have anyone you want represent you. a knowledgeable mechanic, preferably one that did the inspection of your parts and truck, would be the best for you I'd think. Since they did both jobs, unless they can prove that something unforeseeable occurred after the job was done, they will be liable.
mechnificent,
Nov 6, 5:02pm
If they turn up with a manager that doesn't know how the mechanics of the clutch works, and hasn't actually seen the parts, then a mechanic that has looked at the parts, photographed any damage inside the bellhousing, and that can explain the sequence of events that led to the condition. will win hands down.
jmma,
Nov 6, 7:05pm
Seized slave cyl, seized release brg, dam, on a clutch that has done 500km. Anyone for a TUI. Seized means solid, right. So mechanic who went to second breakdown just slipped of the cover and was able to pull piston and seal out, this getting covered in fluid. Doesn't sound seized to me (o: Never seen a seized release brg before, only on a car sitting for 50 years (o: Take a few deep breaths tiggles, another coffee and make sure your thinking is right for the next round. Is Roy big boss! If so, only deal with him from now on. Keep chin up.
tiggles2,
Nov 6, 11:42pm
Hi all - thank you :) Very trying afternoon and I am as mad as fire - will post update later as have prize giving to go to now
skin1235,
Nov 7, 3:00am
mechnificent, the compensator port blocked argument just plain does not work why! cos all the time the pressure is slowly building up sufficient to push the slave out that far what is happening to the clutch! it would be slipping like a whores knee pad, no way would it have been able to be driven in what witnesses describe as troublefree similar the scenario of the thrust managing somehow to get past the pressure plate fingers then the said fingers now grabbing the carrier and ripping it off the pivot - this purely cannot happen without obvious distress
skin1235,
Nov 7, 3:22am
similar their theory re slave jammed, it will not jam if the return pressure is in direct line through the rod to the piston, and that is how they are setup, if the fork moves the rod will move to one side, and then it can jam, unlikely but feasibly it can, but that can only happen if the fork has moved therefore altering the natural alignment of the fork-rod-piston - which brings you right back to the second invoice " fork not sitting right", and that is their fault, not the fault of age, or wear, or failure of any part apart from failure of the mechanic to ensure it was fitted correctly
seizing the thrust will show some serious wear on the pressure plate fingers, they'll be blue at least, worn down considerably, ( and that doesn't happen while your pedal is light and there is no strange noises) but say it did seize, it still won't rip the carrier out of the fork, because it is held in by two methods, strong clips, and tight fit in location area to drop it out of the fork the fork has to be moved freely ( under no pressure) and the clips have to be removed - in this case it appears they were never fitted correctly but even that doesn't explain how it may have dislocated from the fork, - unless the fork fell off the pivot ball, or was never properly fitted to it in the first place - this allows the fork to fall down below the pivot ball to the full extent of the rod lateral movement, next time you work the clutch it will be offcenter to the slave bore, and will pull the fork forcibly from the retaining clips holding the carrier
as just about every military mechanic who worked on the old RL's can vouch for - they actually had a habit of unwinding the pivot ball and dropping it into the bottom of the clutch housing
tiggles2,
Nov 7, 3:35am
Right - for the first time Nev actually returned my phone call He wanted to know if I had spoken to the MTA - yes Did I understand what they had said - yes the same hog wash as he was spouting - with more of a patronizing approach. Well I need to listen then Gonna love this bits lads - Apparently the information I have been given by the numerous mechanics I have spoken to is wrong because the slave failed / seized and that is what caused the fork to move - the mechanics I have sought advice of and I quote "are welcome to ring Neil for the actual facts and the technical details of what happened as I have obviously not grasped the concept and have given out incorrect information" I may not be a mechanic but I am not stupid - the inference I am is rude I understand math and physics very well. there is a wee matter of the angle that the piston was at when over extended and cocked. Seized is, as I understand it welded together - totally stuck - the mechanic pulled the piston and seal out by hand with no effort. Nev still reluctant to send my parts has given his word they will be on the courier in the morning ( I asked first thing to day.) I await a call from Roy - This is not so much about the $$$ but the principal. Yes I do need a non MTA mechanic who knows his stuff here at home, and yes i am more than happy to pay someone to pull it apart and photograph it etc. It has only done 102 kms since the second job was done Thoughts anyone please
tiggles2,
Nov 7, 3:38am
we posted at the same time skin1235 thank you - I am so frustrated. being talked over and down at is just plain rude I am not going to go away - process always a process to be followed.
skin1235,
Nov 7, 3:45am
I wish I had the time to do that tiggles, unfortunately cannot can only offer words to support, keep fighting it, as for Neil gonna try to explain to anyone who rings - pffft - and he'd definitely not want me or any of acouple of others posting to front him at his desk for an explanation yes you are still being treated as a mushroom, sounds like MTa have joined them to try to shut you down as well 102 kms since repaired at cost of 3500, and it blew its tits, is he so arrogant that he cannot see the conection
tiggles2,
Nov 7, 4:04am
The support on here skin1235 is awesome - yes it would be fantastic if someone were nearer but Murphy's law puts us where we are Yes they are doing the mushroom treatment and I was made to feel equally as silly by the MTA to even suggest that the company was wrong. They harp on about the master - it has not been touched The kms don't count apparently as "these things just happen - especially after a new clutch kit" So why did they not replace the slave - I told them to check and replace everything to do with the clutch "how far do we go, we do't have crystal balls" Er hm a new slave is less than $50.00 - even with a 'few hours' labour it would not have broken the bank "as said we can't can't foresee these things" But if you know there is a possibility then surely you prevent it "Its only a very rare possibility" Why so rare and my truck then "You just don't understand the technical side of all this - the piston seized in the slave cylinder and this caused damage to the internal parts of the clutch - that is what happen" ***bangs head against wall again**
mechnificent,
Nov 7, 5:29am
If the master cylinder got out of adjustment, or blocked, somewhere near the breakdown place, and just before your last couple of clutch uses, and then you operated the clutch to come to a stand-still, and then again to go into reverse, that could have pumped the slave cylinder out too far.
So, did you operate the clutch more than once coming to a stop and then going into reverse!
The theory that the slave cylinder seized is ridiculous because then the clutch arm would have traveled the standard distance, with no damage done except the clutch would havebeen disengaged, you would have been able to select any gear, but the truck would not have moved because the clutch would not have taken up when you took your foot off the pedal. You said you couldn't get into reverse. right! In my scenario, you pumped it once and got the truck into neutral, then perhaps pumped it a second time to select reverse which over extended the slave and drove the bearing and/or arm into the fingers of the pressure plate. long shot but the only thing that makes sense to me. the bearing or arm got caught, knocked the arm or the bearing off, the clutch engaged and you couldn't get reverse because the clutch was engaged.
If the slave had been pushing on the bearing for long, and if the bearing had seized, which will be obvious, (and is very unlikely to have happened to a new bearing), then the fingers on the pressure plate will show wear or heat signs.
An inspection of the parts and the inside of the bellhousing will tell you straight away what happened.
snoopy221,
Nov 7, 9:09am
Hot Coffee Sit DWN GRL''' 3 DEEP Breaths-K'' (oh and lose the 1st4-k) Can u PLEASE ASK DEEEES PEOPLE CAN I PLANT MY PUMPKIN SEEDS. In The Bulls*T theysprout! Never heard so much CR!P IN ME LYFE SINYCE DISS THREAD.
Actulaly i HAVE TO DIGRESS. Akin to having to remove blah blah. and reach up to the cylnder head. And clean the spark plugs.
Nice **spin** to the MTA. !Scuse me -are YOU Warrant qualified! M r MTA Man! oops OBVIOUSLY YOU AREN'T. Now Mr MTA Man Your Trade Cert Number is! And do you REALLY EXPECT A POOR SIMPLE FEMALE ALONE WITH CHILDREN LIKE ME TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU SAID!
P S. I've had seventeen children.i'm a worn slave. Think i'm gunna be as siezably tight as required as truth by your story as a sixteen year old virgin>>>
Mr mta man YOUR VERSION OF SECONDHAND CRAP/TRUTH-(As You Prefer) Is TOTALLY UNNACEPTABLE. M T A. Means WHT! nWADYS! uSd tab b4 txt spk. Motor TRADE. Assosciation.
Seems like it's the 60 yr old virgins club-COMBINDED with the Pumpkin seed PLANTING group
POST THAT m t a HOUER'S PHONE NUMBER SOMEONE. With or without an extra 1st4.
You damn well KNOW what is what ya been RIPPED and a LOT of people posting in here are MORE than CAPABLE of DOING THE DAMN JOB ONCE CORRECTLY. Ask that Mr M T A you refer to if he can>!
And if he naffed it up! WOULD HE ADMIT TO HIS DAMN MISTAKE! Or charge for it and LIE!
tiggles2,
Nov 7, 2:42pm
Hi mechnificent The area I had just driven to requires careful low speed driving for the last 5kms - it is twisty, up and down hill with narrow roads (you go across a dam) Clutch and gears worked fine, they were fine when pulled up at gate and stopped to open it, fine again to drive through gate and stop again, close gate, fine again to move on 600 mts to final parking spot. Pulled up in 2nd - foot on clutch, other on brake to select reverse Stick did not want to move other than best described as a wobble - yes I did let clutch out then to see if something had stuck and thus would release. Clutch came up with no *umph* and engine stayed running with no threat of staling. Pushed clutch in again had no resistance, it returned limp and floppy,maybe pumped it 2 - 3mores times then, stick not moving and clutch still floppy, bent down with hand to move it - floppy. Turned engine off. Tried clutch with hand again floppy - it would return but no umph and no real resistance Need something stronger than coffee last night snoopy The MTA are most certainly part pf a the old boys club of cover each others ar$es. the first call was promising and helpful - the second patronizing - he did though (MTA) suggest I may have a claim due to the time of failure but I would need to go through small claims court (so much for their mediation) For MTA no google MTA - about us - contact us - mediation line will take yo straight to the only person who does the complaints. So until I get the parts I am kinda stuck I think- the process system will not listen to "non qualified opinions" no matter how well argued and certainly not from a MB Most other spoken to in person don't want to pick up someone else cr@p job So - wait for parts (ringing Nev in minute) and go for there
mechnificent,
Nov 7, 4:40pm
"Pulled up in 2nd - foot on clutch, other on brake to select reverse Stick did not want to move other than best described as a wobble".
Probably hard to remember exactly after this time but, was the lever still in second position!
And, after you had turned the motor off. how did the lever move then!
Really hard to figure out what went wrong without examining the old parts, and the lever and the pressure plate for damage or marks.
Since the motor did not stall, either the box did move into neutral, but then not into reverse, or, the clutch was stuck down.
The only out for them really, is if it was the master cylinder working itself out of adjustment or getting a blockage. both of which would have been very unlikely to happen only once and then never again.
The most likely scenario is that they didn't put something together correctly, but the lever would be hard to get wrong, and it should have been obvious right from when they first started the truck up. Also, once the lever is on correctly, it's almost impossible to come off in most vehicles. and, if the lever is in the right place, it's almost impossible for the bearing to come off. The only thing that would cause the bearing to come off the lever would be if it seized, which really never happens even when they are old, or, it got pushed too far and the lever hit the spinning pressure plate(which would have made a noise), and the spinning pressure plate knocked it off.
I don't think you are going to know for sure unless you can look in the small hole where the lever goes in, and can see damage on the lever, or take the box out and examine it very carefully for damage, or wear/rubbing in places it should not be, such as on the wrong side of the lever retaining spring, on the outsides of the pressure plate, on the fingers of the pressure plate.
Photos of the old parts, especially the bearing and the slave cylinders piston. might show us something. Really though, you need a competent mechanic right there, examining things for you.
tiggles2,
Nov 7, 10:39pm
Thursday update First - to the "persons" reading this thread and reporting back - creating B/S to ar$e cover - man up - you know you stuffed it up, I know you stuffed it up, so do all the actual posters on here - feeding B/S to the company owner - bit below the belt don't you think! Roy rang me this afternoon and said that after consultation with his mechanics it was clear that the master cylinder has caused the slave to fail and that's was had caused the damaged. me - hmm no the has been no mention of the master cylinder failing / incorrectly working on the invoice or original discussions. It was the slave cylinder that was replaced the master has not been touched RM- Thats not the information I have been supplied Me - well you have not been supplied correct information - the slave failed due to incorrect installation of the fork during the first job RM - no your truck is very old and has failing parts from wear and tear - this happens you know ME - my truck maybe old but it is not failing apart - all work required is donein a timely professional manner with truck well serviced and looked after. But back to the problem at hand - poor workmanship leading to damage resulting in further repairs. RM - I am not a mechanic are you Me - No I am not - but I do have a very mathematical logical brain and your story does not add up and so it went on - basically ended wit RM not wanting to be involved and that I should contact his mechanics for any further issues, that the MTA supported them - I did point out that of cause they support him he pays a membership fee for that service - he said fair call on that. I asked him for my parts which he said he would follow up on but believed only the bearing had been sent NOTE - I asked for parts with an 'S' not part He was under the impression that the other parts had been disposed of - funny I asked for MY parts earlier in the week. Was also told that they were examined in a meeting on Monday hmmm Guts of it all - discussion with RM was more akin to head banging a brick wall - not quite so patronizing as some but close Again he laid down the challenge of any "qualified" mechanic to contact his and have the technical aspects explained to them as i did not understand I pointed out that to have my truck striped down etc was not a problem - thsi was ignored. The thrust / release bearing has arrived - it looks well seized on its self (all the wee balls are munted as is the carrier of the balls and the outer ring of the inside of the outer rim (so what do that rub against and do what damage) will take pictures and upload in while I want the slave cylinder.
tiggles2,
Nov 7, 10:43pm
mechnificent I have a small 5 speed gear box - nothing flash Gears go 1st - down far left 2nd - straight up 3rd - straight down 4th - up to the right 5th - straight down reverse is up from first and slightly away to the left so in answer to your question - I was unsure if truck was still in second or not as stick would not move much - so let clutch out slow to see if i moved or stalled. I did neither - the clutch returned with no umph so I pushed in again thinking something maybe stuck - stick still not moving. that is my recollection of events
tiggles2,
Nov 7, 10:43pm
mechnificent I have a small 5 speed gear box - nothing flash Gears go 1st - down far left 2nd - up to the right 3rd - straight down 4th - up to the right 5th - straight down reverse is up from first and slightly away to the left so in answer to your question - I was unsure if truck was still in second or not as stick would not move much - so let clutch out slow to see if i moved or stalled. I did neither - the clutch returned with no umph so I pushed in again thinking something maybe stuck - stick still not moving. that is my recollection of events
jmma,
Nov 7, 10:45pm
Com'on guys, there must be one of us on here close enough to help tiggles out, I'm tempted, just a bit far away. She needs help to sort this B S out, the offer is there for a qualified mechanic to go see them, Anyone up to this !
tiggles2,
Nov 7, 11:32pm
Thanks jmma :) Murphy's law has you all miles away - its the way it works RM - made it very clear - I was not giving out the correct information thus info i had obtained was incorrect. i have not changed anything I have said / written to anyone Just looking at the thrust bearing now - it was very seized, the ball bearings have had a side worn off, the carrier has sort of self welded on the side the smaller ring that holds the ball bearings in slides in - that same smaller ring has small damage to one lip as in it is pitted and has soot maybe around it (black fine powder) There are tinges of that blue colour that suggest heat, Will figure out how to upload pictures
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