jmma Three separate mechanics from totally separate companies who have seen and handled the bearing have said the following The bearing is blue - it has sustained a huge amount of heat over time not a short burst It looks like it was facing the correct way In all their experiences (over 20 odd years each) they have NEVER seen or experienced a slave cylinder causing internal damage such as this - its rubbish and I am being B/Sed to The bearing has to have been on for some time to self weld and seize as it has Theories - not enough clearance left so bearing continually touching carrier Fork not installed correctly The fact the slave was not leaking, the master was not touched, no fluid was lost rules out slave All agreed yes have been shafted and screwed The fact 'owners' no longer want to talk to me and they no longer have the slave cylinder - funny that So that's the state of play Have many many many opinions that I am in the right - but P&S are adamant they are and that is that This is going to be a mucky argument
snoopy221,
Nov 8, 8:01pm
Yep i still stand by my original post. As to which way around the bearing was and what it was hitting with it's back face. A simple removal of the slave cylnder and boot and pulling back of the release fork and a lookie with a torch will show. There WILL be markings. A couple of pics and we STOP playing mushrooms. Incedentaly we DO have a Brake and Clutch Rebuilders assosciation in New Zealand.
google *racebrakes*Talk to the manager/owner.(John)
Point him to this thread even -he can see the pics.
Simply mention Mike ex Central Motoring [alias snoop] as a reference.
Shouldn't take too long forthe supplier of that clutch kit/bearing to be found. From there when the supplier sees the bearing things should change a tad.
You see that bearing has flat sided balls-that- has hapenned by contact caused by incorrect instalation.
snoopy221,
Nov 8, 8:32pm
Furthemore i'll add some *Horse speak*
When that bearing is correctly installed and working.
It's load face is essentialy the saddle on the horse.comfortable to the rider.
And the damage you are seeing is essentialy worn/ripped girth straps.
A failure/siezure of that bearing would show wear in the balls/race on the opposite side respectivley if correctly installed.
mechnificent,
Nov 8, 10:52pm
It looks to me like that bearing has been in the wrong way. The inner piece has a small and a larger diameter, it makes a shoulder on it's outer diameter which pushes against those balls. The outer part of the bearing has a shoulder on it's inner diameter. When that inner part is fitted into the outer part, the bearing holder should push from the larger diameter side of the inner piece, and the opposite side, which is the outer part of the bearing, should be pushing up against the pressure plate. It looks to me from that wear, that they had it fitted so that the bearing carrier was pushing the small diameter of the shoulder on the inner piece, out of the balls. and the balls were not doing their job of being between the inner and outer.
tiggles2,
Nov 8, 11:52pm
have goggled and found snoopy as late have sent email through site one thing all the people who held the bearing did was screw their faces up when moving their fingers clockwise over the damage - anti clock wise and you don't catch yourself - does that help in any to know which way the balls were spinning! There is not a hint of grease any where - only soot. MTA chap was friendlier this afternoon when told him that P&S were not going to shift from their stand, had "disposed" of the slave and were still talking to me in a patronizing manner. He said I had a very good case for mediation and to put my complaint in writing to P& S and copy the MTA in. He also stated that the MTA was only onside with P&S providing the evidence stood up - I guess the bearing does not fit the story Truck is booked in for a new flasher unit on Tuesday as local nation wide truck shop. Will ask then to do as you have said snoopy
snoopy221,
Nov 9, 1:38am
Will ask then to do as you have said snoopy
Good and talk to john before i talk to him. but i have known/worked with him since the nineties and trust him-again use the reference i gave you Should this end up in small claims tribunal there can be no conspiring. If ya lucky a very experienced clutch and brake rebuilder will pop in here and give his own opinion. Probably about time you got some things in writing from this company
mechnificent,
Nov 9, 1:39am
Have a look at the two parts of that bearing Tiggles, they work like a cup and a cone, they are tapered, one fits inside the other and the bearings between them get pressed on and also pressed outwards, the cone wedges the balls between itself and the cup. You should be able to see the tapered seats where the balls are meant to run. When the pressure comes onto the bearing, it's meant to press the tapered inner race, into the cup. The wear on your bearing looks like the inner cone has been pressing the wrong way. Is that right! For that chewed up face to be there, the inner cone must have been getting pressed in a direction that the balls weren't pressing into the cup!
So the taper would just have moved and allowed the balls to rattle around in there pretty much. The outer case would have been touching the bearing carrier and the spinning pressure plate.
snoopy221,
Nov 9, 1:42am
Oh and does the *horse* analogy help! And yes the engine only rotates one way-as to which way around the bearing was that IS DEFINABLE. BUT AGAIN A SIMPLE SLAVE CYL UNBOLTING AND RELEASE FORK COVER REMOVING A GOOD LIGHT AND A CAMERA. And essentialy another independant opinion-however backed up by pictures.
snoopy221,
Nov 9, 1:46am
Essentialy where i would like to head with this At The Mo-is to call a few favours in and when we have the make year and model of the truck-and we KNOW most of the major suppliers of clutch kits. And we already have the priceing. Date would be handy-however Beyond Any Doubt there will be invoicing for a kit-and a further invoice for a release bearing. Now if big companies are supplying 500 kilometre lifespan bearings.
mmmmmmm.
tiggles2,
Nov 9, 2:01am
Have emailed and will ring on Monday snoopy if no communication :) mechnificent - I sort of get what you are saying as the middle ring thing I can wiggle in to place or out. It does not appear tapered - the whole thing is warped though form the heat I guess I understand that the balls and the carrrier thing they are in is presseed into the hard face with a ring thing around - not sure when they are selaed on the process with a soft face or when the middle thing is put in there is a raised bit that goes around the inner bit that has a channel that is scooped out it is clean and not scratched or welded etc It looks like the balls would run in this when together ok closer looking - the top lip of the inner bit is covered in soot the lower lip does have scratches that may indicate something has rubbed against them - there are also a coupe of bits of weld stuck on the inner side of this bit at the end without soot Sorry guys i don't really know what i am looking for
snoopy221,
Nov 9, 2:04am
Sorry guys i don't really know what i am looking for
We do and if ya saddle lost ALL it's girth straps ya'd say what the damn heckoroonie was touchin it where it SHOULD NOT BE.
K
tiggles2,
Nov 9, 2:09am
posting to slow snoopy sorry - I was trying to work the bearing out ok truck is 1983 Isuzu Foward KS32 - 1st reg in NZ 01/01/1983 it has done 244875 km Date of clutch kit would be around 20 / 21st September - I did not get truck back until 26th they had it from 18th Horse analogy sort of fits - if the girth is stuffed you give the horse girth galls and will either damage the horse or perfect the art of the unplanned dismount at speed.;p if the saddle does not fall off and you end up A over T
tiggles2,
Nov 9, 2:11am
Sorry missed read - girth straps - hell yes WTF was touching them to waer then out they are attached to the tree which is the metal (was once wood) frame hmm chassis of the saddle and protected by the saddle flaps
snoopy221,
Nov 9, 2:16am
Yr clutch release bearing looks like a no legged horse dragged through blackberry with ripped and torn and welded and destroyed saddle straps.
Furthemore i'll add some *Horse speak*
When that bearing is correctly installed and working.
It's load face is essentialy the saddle on the horse.comfortable to the rider.
And the damage you are seeing is essentialy worn/ripped girth straps.
A failure/siezure of that bearing would show wear in the balls/race on the opposite side respectivley if correctly installed.
Diferrent to either the buckles breaking- or the girths loose as and the inevitable dismount. But again would you expect a BRAND NEW SADDLE to break it's straps! Surely in that case one would deal with the saddle supplier! Mind you if! ya fitted a saddle upside down and the rider fell off.
snoopy221,
Nov 9, 2:17am
hell yes WTF was touching them to waer then out
yay.finally. ya undastand snoop speak.
tiggles2,
Nov 9, 2:22am
LMAO Snoopy - love it - made me smile thank you :) Saddles come with anything from 5 - 10 year warranty's (unless you buy cheap imported replicas) If this were a saddle then the company who sold it would be wearing it and taking it up with the manufacturer and i would have a new one - then again - there I know my stuff here I am fishing in the dark with a touch - but the torch is getting bigger and brighter and I am getting it - albeit slowly
tiggles2,
Nov 9, 2:25am
I asked what was touching them before - answers have been - fork, carrier and fingers off the pressure plate - but no follow through as soon as i said well there will be damage then as the groves are deep and hot metal is like glue it sticks. sets real fast too when it cools (hot shoe the horses so see red hot steal shaped etc and how fast it cools)
snoopy221,
Nov 9, 2:26am
Yip if in doubt simply refer to my first post on page one. And yup the markings on that bearing are where it should never touch anything if correctly installed.
tiggles2,
Nov 9, 2:53am
Right have cut myself doing this but any way - putting the middle bit in and lining up all the marks / scratches etc the middle bit sits at a angle and not square and flushed as it would appear it would sitting on an angle I can see how the balls would rub flat, the ball carrier would raise more on one side and the scratches on the middle bit have happened defiantly anti clock wise as clock wise you rip all the welds up
snoopy221,
Nov 9, 3:09am
Well sometime over the week end you can start ya truck up and see which way the fan goes-even mark the pulleys and touch the starter-I.E. don't glow it just crank it for a second or so and look at ya marks. Then think about that poor release bearing- and decide if it was being rubbed the wrong way at the back of the motor. Then stop and think
BECAUSEIN ALL MY MECHANIK YRS. I AIN'T NEVER SEEN ONE FITTED BACKWARDS. IN ALL YA HORSE YEARS YA EVER SEEN ANY1 FIT A SADDLE UPSIDE DOWN! Only ONE poster here has posted-bearing installed backwards-seen that before. If! so then marks will be easy to seewhen slave is pulled off and fork pulled abck and torch and camera used.
snoopy221,
Nov 9, 3:15am
The marking evident on the correct face of the bearing could have been caused when the bearing balls allowed the bearing centre to be pushed through at failure point and could be from the bearing outer touching the release fork. This explains the heavy clutch and the slave cyl overtravell. We await a post from sr2. He is a VERY experienced person in the clutch and brake rebuilding field. (Regular poster-opinion called in)
snoopy221,
Nov 9, 3:18am
Respectivley one STILL has to look at it as a **Brand new bearing failure at 500 k's* Which either falls back on instalation-or supplier. NO WAY IT WAS SLAVE CYL-CLUTCH WOULD HAVE SLIPPED.
tiggles2,
Nov 9, 3:27am
Saddle upside down - yeah well it does actual happen when you have no speak English clients - I kid you not - don't even think about what they do with bridles. I will lift seat and mark then watch which way fan goes. I do the oil and water all the time (check not fill - like you do before you do a long trip down the dessert road with a full load) - my head is already telling me its clockwise and I have got the direction of rotations wrong somewhere. This is where the math does not work - can't tell you why but the law of physics says it just doesnt work that way
tiggles2,
Nov 9, 3:52am
One half of the carrier thing that held the balls is far more stretched and pulled out than the other - there are five balls still in place and I have another seven in a bag - all have a flat side the ball carrier thing does not move - it has self welded to the top lip of bearing case - it does not look like it has stuck to anywhere in side
supernova2,
Nov 9, 2:04pm
Just to upset everyone.Wonder why they kept the bearing but disposed of the slave cylinder!Even more to the point is that even your bearing!Suggest you take the bits into BNT and ask to see the correct bearing and compare the two.Take you camera and put them side by side in the pics.
If the bearing is that stuffed then there would have been major damage to anything it was touching so therefore the pressure plate should be equally as damaged but they say it wasn't.
They now sayiong the master cylinder caused the problem but no work was done to the master - why not!
Just to put in perspective my ute has done 800,000km of very hard work.The clutch master and slave have never been touched, neither has the bearing.
If the fork fell off the pivot IMHO it would not jamb the bearing as I asume that the bearing carrier is concentrict with the nose piece on the gearbox.If the bearing titled enough to jamb up and therefore jamb the pressure plate the gearbox nose would have broken as well.
No matter which way P&S go they are simplky creating anb impossible story.Wonder if they have even noticed their initials P&S - thats a cheap food shop and from the look of it their staff shouldn't even work in a dairy!
Interesting that the Director/Sharholder keeps saying he's not a mechanic.He's not a businessman either IMHO.
Sounds like it time for a visit from a group of men on bikes if you get my drift.
Maybe the mechanics on this thread should all ring P&S and ask for the explaination.They could then post the results of the discussion on here.
From the white pages Marsden's number is 07-3788241.Lets hassel him.
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