Long Story if you have the time. Now my farm car since this happened but brake guy said yeah 'that' can happen with master cylinder wear! . All very good but i'll guarantee it's 'not' that. Back to the start--son driving around town, into a left turn to give way to traffic on his right [old rules] & pedal to the floor like 'no brakes' whatsoever! . Damn lucky & rang home, can't do that said I, tried again while parked & perfect so carried on & no more problems for say a month & me disbelieving. Car went through the next wof [vtnz & i saw the readings on the rollers] & has the best brakes anyway with 4 wheel discs & can be relied on to the end [normaly]. Month later wifey rings home in 'more than a panic' as nearly had accident--no brakes & pedal to the floor. Luckily only down our quiet country road so i went & drove it home at idle on the hand brake after pumping pedal etc with no luck so i'd now experienced it. Did the home blead up thing which is never usualy a problem [although never done it on this car--or needed to] but 'did' come up spongy & worked but far from right, so fitted a known good master cylinder which blead up to feel ok then started going spongy after driving. So--fitted a 'brand new' m/cylinder & this also came up spongy so in the end i blead hell out of the abs [ALB i think] & it came back to normal. Wasn't long after that though that it ended up as my farm car after getting a stone crack in the screen right where you don't want it. So refitted the old m/cylinder to save the new one [have 4 of these cars--'it's a disease']--& has never looked back & is used every day around here. My question is [forgotten now lol]--how is this fault possible?. Can imagine an accident where brakes failed--then inspector tests them & 'perfect' so driver is telling 'porkies' [but not]. Worried the hell out of me [us] after that, especialy since we have two similar cars used every day around here although one doesn't have ALB or abs.
kazbanz,
Aug 31, 2:04am
master cylinder seals
yz490,
Aug 31, 2:09am
Sorry, there's more--just too many words for one post according to trademe! .
Ok--if you want a laugh on me--what 'not to do'. Broke a cam belt last month & close enough to coast home right to the shed--so ran another old belt on [terrible i know]--no damage so must have clearance--[5 cylinder front wheel drive longways motor], left all the covers off incase it does it again--or just too lazy to put them on--all good but thought bonnet's 'that' heavy she'll never lift & have to unhook stuffed battery every night so left the catch off. WRONG--heading off to get firewood & into the wind & WHACK--MUM! --more screen cracks! . Another stupid thing--i thought [hoped] i had the [guessed] valve timing right so tried it & burst into life at a fast lean idle with no water & no [what's it called-pc valve] running good but fast & had no pulley on the bottom, next thing the cam belts walking off--nearly right off the top & the tensioner before i got it stopped--all in a few seconds--was a close call. Slow learner 'me'. Thanks. ps any ideas or similar experiences with the top story would be good to hear but don't say it 'can't happen because that's exactly how it happened.
intrade,
Aug 31, 2:17am
i read he put 1 secoundhand master cilinder and one brand new cilinder in the car? if thats how it is then it cant be the master. You want to see a hydraulic diagramm on how and where the fluids go. as farm hack i be removing the abs module or replace it with one from a pickapart one if you replaced the master , Any air in the bleeding?
also i have a story on my corolla of interst no brake on right rear drum on last wof , i fitted new brake cilinder and shoe 5 month before. so whipped the drumm of did not look like it was fluid leaking but fitted a knowen good old one after bleeding it first 3 times same thing no brake action suspected equalizer fault. hmmm scrached my head for a while. got out the vernier and mesured the drum max wear diameter 210mm mesured 209mm whipped off the other side was 205mm in inside diameter, so hmmm swapped over drums and woala brake was working again on both sides , but will remember i need 2 new drums soon for the rear or secoundhand good ones.
yz490,
Aug 31, 2:19am
Hmmm, sounds 'too' unlikely i 'thought' seeing it came right 'as in' perfectly normal, then through a wof & randomly totaly failed ages later & even a known good cylinder plus a brand new out of the box cylinder didn't totaly fix it--something in the ABS--ALB? possibility? as bleading that lots seemed to fix it now, and am even back to using the ['known to operate good'] old cylinder now. but car's not used in anger as such anymore--pedal's positive & abs works if you stand on it hard. Thanks.
intrade,
Aug 31, 2:22am
re%5 possible rust inside abs module sticking open valve probably to old to set any abs module codes if thats the case and bleeding unstuck cleared the rust now in abs module is what i thing happened. a diagram you could go thru how it could be possible if a valve stayd open intermittend
snoopy221,
Aug 31, 2:53am
Moit bee a cuppla older brokzen (assed?lol) mekniks aroondies. That will tell ya brake fluid is a hygroscopic liquid. It is designed to attract and retain water. Cast iron bored master cyl and entry point of fluid in to master cyl EQUALS small rust pit in bottom of master cylinder bore. Result. One day fluid cups fold over on rust pit and bypass and pedal goes to floor.
intrade,
Aug 31, 2:55am
re 7 he replaced 3 masters
franc123,
Aug 31, 2:57am
Those old ALB systems on Hondas were always sods to bleed if you didn't do it the right way. The original master cyl probably did fail but if you didn't bench bleed the replacement before fitting it and then bleed the ABS modulator itself and then at the wheels it might explain why you got problems.
intrade,
Aug 31, 4:52am
could be what happened. i got a vaccume bleeder so if i got no brakes after bleeding 1 liter out then i know the problem must be elswhere.
yz490,
Aug 31, 8:35am
To 'intrade', I might contradict myself here but order was--Son driving &Total failure, then came 100% right. [me not realy believing him] Months later & after vtnz wof it failed again with wifey driving & Total failure with me believing this time! . Blead up but not happy [ok but soft] although no air & new fluid. So used a good Master cylinder off another of my fleet lol but blead up just the same [soft] so bought a 'new' master cylinder with the same result! [Alloy Master Cylinder by the way]. So blead S$%t out of the ALB [Honda ABS] which fixed it. So saved the new Master Cylinder & refitted the good used one which it still has today. This was a couple of years ago & still use it every day but only close to home--can't fault it. If the ALB is the cause & rust inside--well so be it--i just want to hear if someone else has had that problem. Was going to bypass the ALB but didn't have a way to join the brake pipes at home. Think it was then that i blead the ALB by putting 12 volts straight to the pump. Thanks.
gmphil,
Aug 31, 8:47am
bit that's got me ! to floor on son but no bleeding to rectify ?
yz490,
Aug 31, 8:59am
interesting Corolla story of yours too thanks, most interesting. Brakes eh! . Have an old "86--626 Coupe with useless drums on the rear & good discs on the front, total miss-match, [now is my 'other' farm car lol] Was [is] so bad i inquired about an adjustable compensating valve but was told the problem wouldn't be a faulty original.-- Faulty or not i thought it might fix it if i could adjust it! . When on the road as our good car 10 years ago i was always into the rear brake cleaning dust out & adjusting them right up & they'd be ok for a while but not safe compared to say the Vigor--far from it. Tried different new shoes & all helped in the short term but not for long. Was downright dangerous towing a trailer or even looking at a white line while braking--or shiny tarseal as front would work great but & lock the wheels if you tried hard enough but the rear just 'Assisted' but no where near enough. Very light car in the tail too Put it off the road in the end as unsafe & will wreck it in the end but just keep going every day almost. Went through the flooding deeper than expected down the back of the farm recently & the clutch went funny [grabby] till it dried out, then on starter brush rusted in the guide--starter fizzed & stopped working but an easy fix luckily. Poor old Mazda. Holds lots of firewood in the boot.
yz490,
Aug 31, 9:06am
Yes, sons description but identical to what happened with wife driving ages later which didn't self rectify the fault & i 'sampled that one' & snuck home on the handbrake. Arrived at where she'd parked [shaking] & it was just like about the same feeling as if you've cracked open one blead nipple & pressed the pedal--right to the end with no brakes.
yz490,
Aug 31, 9:18am
Order was blead up & not good enough but useable with care. Second hand good operating master cylinder & identical result. Brand new master cylinder & similar result as in useable but 'not right'. Blead [& blead] the ABS & is ok. [ABS problem?, sounds likely].
yz490,
Aug 31, 9:29am
Just had a thought [getting near 70 so takes a while lol] going back to the ABS when i tried to blead it--it wouldn't pump fluid--ran flat out but no fluid to blead. Google [know everything] says pump drive pin broken [which it was] so replaced just the pump bit with the pin by memory from my wrecker & she blead up fast & good, [bit of a dangerous job if you're eyes in the way]. So, in hindsight could the pump have 'not been working for who knows--years maybe--& ABS parts rusted or stuck in some way if that's possible. Was just a thought.
yz490,
Aug 31, 9:53am
Thanks for your help guys. Not worried about it now as is ok & was a couple or 3 years ago--but has always concerned me as we drive another every day although a "95 2.5 but same deal as the "92--2 litre. If you know these nightmares--5 cyld G20A north south & front wheel drive with diff bolted to the sump on the left & a tube through under the crank to take the drive over to he right wheel. Auto behind the motor of course with a jack shaft forward to the diff. Bought one on a whim for $100 bucks thinking broken cam belt by how the lady described it. Had a spare head but thought just flick the key first--& it started instantly & silently for about two seconds, then all hell broke loose, Broken conrod on No1, bugger. Nighmare to get the sump off at home but jacked the motor up high & lay underneath contemplating a 4 cylinder 1600 but in the end i got a good motor off trademe for 350 delivered by memory. Been good as a spare or the kids car for years now. Go quite well, stop well [worth nothing] & must've been pretty upmarket when new! .
aredwood,
Aug 31, 10:21am
Another guess - fault in the ABS computer causing one of the control valves in the ABS pump to stay open. Or if the computer is separate to the pump. an intermittent short to ground in the control valve wiring.
yz490,
Sep 1, 12:44am
There's a thought, but surely honda in their wisdom would have all possibilities covered so it wouldn't fail in the way it did--like totaly! . Thanks. ps, Here's also a funny thing that happened on my other dunga same type car. First 5 cylinder think "89 which has intermitant starting spark issues [ok lately], been going on for years but if it won't start it isn't sparking but if you as you let go the key it gives one spark only [this is a plug hooked to the coil lead so 5 times the amount of sparks for checking purposes], so then fond if i just flick the key it'll always start when this occurs--anyway forget that as all good lately, touch wood--have change the main relay off the other car before someone suggests it. I'll start another reply for next story about computer.
yz490,
Sep 1, 1:10am
Yes--computers Ahhggg. While trying to fix this intermitant no spark so no start issue [ok lately though] i changed the computer [mission to find under the passenger foot well or up a bit--was a while ago]. Did the swap & because the computer came out of an ABS car & into the earlier car minus ABS the damn thing though it was wheel spinning & started up on 4 cylinders every time [economy mode lol], would come right if you stopped & started & buggered around but had to leave it like it for a week or more till it stopped raining pretty much. Had to be careful if you drove off like that as it would suddenly come right & take off like a rocket. Took me a while to figure that the damn thing thinks it's in ABS mode & think there was a plug missing to go into computer compared to the car it came out off. Had battery disconnected to try & neutralize everything [if that makes sense]. Anyway, swapped computers back & all is good again plus as a bonus the intermitant spark starting issue has cured itself. Cars eh! , give me points ignition.
Also--another story--My old 626 coupe stuffed the module at least 10 years ago so wired a tci box & coil of my old Toyota Grande by finding the trigger wire in the module & running the wires out to the Toyota box then de-activated the vacuum advance & gave it a bit more manual advance & it's never failed, stlll used most days localy. De-activated the vacuum to stop wire flex where my jack up entered through the side to the module.
dave653,
Sep 2, 1:43am
G'day. I recently bought a '90 Vigor with the same engine. Previous owners mechanic had something in the oil to 'hide' the crook bigend! I need a manual to rip it out and fix it, do you have/know of a good shop manual I could buy? Book sellers here won't answer my questions, difficult finding one for this motor. Cheers.
intrade,
Sep 2, 5:30am
My mate scrapped a vigor in the 90s with a bigend no engines for these all wreckers out of stock or also blowen up was mint otherwise went to wrecker for 0 $ was 5 cilinders ifi remember right
franc123,
Sep 2, 6:03am
Those inline fives were a nice engine to drive behind, the whole setup was clearly a copy of the similar Audi /VW designs. From what little experience I had with Rafagas, oil sludging was a problem. It wasn't unknown for the unscrupulous to drill holes through the alloy sump right through the pickup to increase the oil flow and then tap threads in the sump and screw bolts in the hole. Because of the front axle layout removing the sump was an absolute pig of a job.
elect70,
Sep 2, 7:33am
Dont they specify pressure bleeding with ABS ?
gmphil,
Sep 2, 7:37am
try moto books Tauranga ?
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