That co-generation facility, using waste heat, does not come close to the 350MW the mill draws.
s_nz,
Mar 30, 11:27am
I think the cogen plant uses waste gasses, rather than waste heat. But you are correct that I should have considered the net impact of the entire plant.
I think we do need to be quite careful about shutting stuff like this down. The production will inevitably be shifted to countries with lax environmental rules. We also need to be cautious that china now controls more than 50% of the world's steel production, a strategic risk if our relationship with china worsens.
tony9,
Mar 30, 11:29am
That will save thousands of tons of coal being burnt there, required for steel smelting, carbon is an input. But the same amount of coal will still be used somewhere for our steel, and scrap steel will need to exported, lowering the value of it and reducing the value of recycling it.
Glenbrook is a key part of the whole steel recycling process in NZ, shutting it down will have a net increase in NZ's carbon footprint.
We could reduce the use of steel, maybe use wood, Oh, I see a problem there.
marte,
Mar 30, 2:52pm
That's the same argument for not shutting down Tiwai smelter. Employs thousands of people, paid for itself and Manapouri hydro decades ago. It uses clean green Hydropower to make lightweight Aluminium. If that Ali is used in a vehicle, instead of heavy Iron, it uses less fuel to move it, saving more fuel that it weighs in the first place. Then, when it's not needed, it can be recycled at 1/12 of the energy it took to make it in the first place. It's a ' battery metal', once it's made it will be used from there on if it's recycled. It's worth more as scrap than Steel so it's much more likely to be recycled. And the Ali that Tiwai stops making, has to be made somewhere else, and that will be the most inefficient method,most likely a cast iron bath tub over a open lignite heated fire using a lignite fired boiler driving a electric generator & Alumina & Cryolite shoveled in by hand, no fume filtering at all. By the thousands. This is how they were doing it just before the 3 gorges dam was built. I saw photos of it, damming small creeks & hand picking lignite & coal out of small coal seams to make 30+ kgs of Ali in a bathtub a day. The authority's ok'd it as the streams & open coal seams were going to get covered by the lake once the dams were completed anyway. And it made a income for many people at the time. But that's the method they used, it's still being done where it can be.
Back to EV's. I was listening to someone talking about their weekend yesterday " oh & once we got to Timaru, I realised I'd left my handbag at Oamaru, so we had to drive back to get it,". Good luck doing that in a EV. You can't just add in a extra 4 hours driving like that. Or carry a extra 1-3 people.
s_nz,
Mar 30, 3:03pm
I think relatively few people actively want to get rid of the smelter. The issue is that the owner wants to shut it down unless it gets favorable government and power industry treatment. I'm keen to keep it, but not if it means shelling out lots of taxpayer money, or a big cross subsidy via power prices.
Re the Timaru Omaru thing, EV's could absolutely do that its only 96km each leg, and modern EV's like the kona have a 450km range. Also there are fast chargers in both Timiru & Oamaru if charge is running a bit low.
Weight (i.e. people within EV's) doesn't have much of an impact on range. (unlike wind-age such as bikes on the roof).
bitsy_boffin,
Mar 30, 3:28pm
Timaru to Oamaru return isn't 4 hours, it's more like 2.
There are EV chargers along the way, including fast chargers in Timaru, Waimate and Oamaru. So you might have to spend 30 or 40 minutes at a charger if you are in Leaf or something with minimal range to do the return trip, but it's hardly the end of the world.
Number of passengers doesn't make much difference, on the flat there is virtually no difference in rolling resistance, and on the hills the extra energy hauling up the hill is to an extent recaptured in regen going back down the other side.
loud_37,
Mar 30, 6:33pm
Even if they did solve the electricity generation issue, there's not enough copper on earth to build the EV's let alone the infrastructure. That's why you should buy copper mining stocks and uranium stocks.as there will be a shortage of them and prices will rise.
s_nz,
Mar 30, 10:58pm
Thats a big call.
It is estimated the is 6.4b tonnes of copper on earth. The amount of copper in an EV is estimate to be 80kg. So enough to build 80 billion cars. Annual car production is well under 100m/year globally, so enough copper globally for 800 years all EV automotive production.
Cobalt & Nickel are more commonly held up as resources where there could be shortages. Along with rare earth metal, but some EV's already opt for the less efficient rare earth free motors.
marte,
Mar 31, 1:12am
#55 It's a lot about line fees, they finally got the Government to acknowledge that Tiwai had been paying far too much for line fees for decades & only got a price reduction a couple of years ago. It was based on a unfair comparison in what others pay, not one single customer 24 hrs a day 365 & 1/4 days a year ( plus the odd second ) Tiwai pointed out that they could build their own transmission lines for cheaper as competition, to make it fair. But the Government wouldn't let them. So the Government had Tiwai ' over a barrel ' on that.
And the NZ Government reneged on original power deal decades ago, do it's obvious tissue been paying a lot more for power ( is, ripped off ) than it should have been. Take into account what the Government actually gets out of Tiwai point in the first place.
It's sorta like owning a bit of land that nobody can use, and somebody comming along & saying " Hey look, if I can use this tiny bit of land, ( it's tiny ) I will employ your whole family on great wages for generations, invest billions into your surroundings, increase the value of all your property's & give you millions of $$ to throw away as you like, I will educate to a high standard your family & provide you with free assets worth billions, for nothing. Including a free hydropower station " And 30 years later after all this has happened you turn around & go " You are going to pay Auckland rent prices, or f### off ". Knowing that you family will all be out of work if they do.
apollo11,
Mar 31, 8:40am
Pinched from the net: "The real problem with Tiwai point's smelting future isn't the cost of electricity to run it, but the fact it uses the Hall-Héroult process for it's potlines. For over 100 years this process - invented in the 1880's - has been used to produce the majority of the world's aluminium. An issue that's become more pressing with the effects of Global Warming, is during production the carbon anode's consumed, producing at minimum, several tons of CO2 - a Greenhouse Gas - per ton of Aluminium.
Rio Tinto Alcan - the world's biggest producer of Aluminium, and Alcoa/Arconic the world's eighth largest, have partnered with Apple in Elysis and have recently reached the commercialisation stage of a new inert-anode smelting technology. A real breakthrough in Aluminium production that - with electricity supplied from renewables like Hydro - will massively reduce aluminium related CO2 emissions, the main byproduct is Oxygen, and the process's increased efficiency reduces the electricity input required per ton of metal.
For Rio, the success of their new production process appears to have prompted a review of their assets around the world. Tiwai's just one of their smelters listed to close. Crucially their group have Patent control of the new process's proprietary anode and cathode materials, which - lasting more than 30 times longer than traditional components, and making production up to 20% more efficient - are likely to become the new world standard.
If they don't see the value in converting Tiwai point to the new process there probably is none."
tygertung,
Mar 31, 10:50am
Is it possible to capture the CO2, then compress it for industrial use in welding, making dry ice etc?
Looks like China plays the same game with it's aluminium as it does with it's steels.
vic008,
Mar 31, 5:12pm
These ev cars. Do they all share a common charging plug or are they all different between the makers?
marte,
Mar 31, 6:23pm
They do that with the CO2 gas generated off beer fermentation, some of it is put back into the beer & softdrinks to provide the 'fizz'. We were getting CO2 shielding gas from ASCO gas in Dunedin years ago, but I can't find any info about it now. It's also used for dry ice blasting, similar to sand blasting.
The Government were talking about a $100,000,000 relief package for Southland if/when Tiwai closes. Weird because that's gotta come from Tax payers, plus more from tax payers to offset benefits for the unemployed, rising costs, accommodation, Police for crime etc etc. When just keeping it going means none of that's needed, and the Tax $ from the workers keep rolling in. They have very good wages there & so pay proportionally higher tax rates. Excellent health & safety too.
CO2 gases can be reclaimed from the process. It's done by dissolving some compound in water & dropping it down the 'chimney' is a fine shower. The compound absorbs CO2 & turns into chalk or something, ( gypsum, baking soda?)
Someone I know of come up with the idea of doing it in America. Absolutely huge scale, using the compounds in dry deserts, ' playa' like the Black rock desert, but a different one. It would need huge pipelines from the sea, a nuclear powerplant to power it & a small town to run it. But he got patents for it & last I heard was pitching it to very big company's. Haven't heard any more about it, I guess these sorts of people 'dissapear' in time. But it is being done around the world right now. Carbon sequestration. Abstract Offsetting global warming requires rapid methods to sequester atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2), a major greenhouse gas. For instance, mineral carbonation of gypsum from flue gas desulfurization (FGD) is a potential technology for CO2 sequestration, yet reaction conditions are not actually optimized to produce a recyclable product. Here, we transformed gypsum, CaSO4·2H2O, into vaterite, CaCO3, by sonication. We studied conversion, phase compositions and morphologies of carbonation products, and sulfate (SO42−) concentrations during carbonation. Results show that the conversion of CaSO4·2H2O increased from 60 to 98% with ultrasonic amplitude. Pure vaterite was obtained at 50% ultrasonic amplitude in 30 min. Low Ca2+/CO32− ratio, high concentration of SO42− and their synergistic effects appear as key factors to form vaterite. Overall, findings reveal the feasibility of gypsum carbonation to produce high-value vaterite by sonication.
Sept 29 2020 Contact Energy says it is prepared to fire up work on its stalled $600 million Tauhara geothermal project in the wake of a Labour Party change of heart to extend the life of the Tiwai Point aluminium smelter.
Contact announced in July it would defer investment into the “shovel-ready” geothermal power station near Taupō – while claiming it remained the “country’s cheapest and most attractive option for new, renewable, baseload electricity generation”.
s_nz,
Mar 31, 7:29pm
There are two fast charging plug types (Chademo & CCS2) used in NZ. All the public fast chargers have dual (or more) leads to accommodate these either of these sockets on cars.
For slow (AC) charging cars either have the single phase Type 1 socket, or the single/three phase type 2 socket. Government recommendation for public slow chargers is to provide a type 2 socket. EV users bring their own cord to connect from that to whatever plug their car has.
Ex japan used cars (except tesla), are type 1 slow & chademo fast charging.
Most NZ new EV's (except Nissan) are type 2 slow & CCS fast (both standards are integrated into the same plug / socket.
Some oddballs like tesla model S & X which use a propriety plug, but have adapters available to use the public chargers. (model 3 uses the standard CCS type 2). Also not all EV's support fast charging.
On a whole the system works well. Apparently the cost of a dual's cords / plugs on a fast charger isn't very small relative to the cost of the charger.
There are a number of competing standards ( https://xkcd.com/927/ ) but they are starting to mostly use the "Type 2" or "Type 2 CCS" connector (CCS is for fast charging, but it can take a slow non-CCS plug also for AC charging only).
CHAdeMO is also common for DC fast charging, vehicles with CHAdeMO will also have another socket for slow (AC) charging (typically Type 1, or Type 2).
spead,
Apr 1, 1:22pm
nuclear power is the way
s_nz,
Apr 1, 3:06pm
Globally perhaps, But unlikely for NZ.
We are in the fortunate position in NZ to have abundant renewable energy that we can harness. We also are country with significant seismic, volcanic, and Tsunami risk, and minimal skills in that area.
As a final nail in the coffin for NZ, Typically units are in the 500MW - 1500MW scale, and typically installed in power plants with multiple units for economies of scale. The sheer scale of these units creates challenges around having sufficient reserves to keep the lights on if a reactor trips offline.
apollo11,
Apr 1, 3:35pm
NZ can't afford conventional nuclear. I see modular nuclear is all the rage now, I wonder how much those cost?
s_nz,
Apr 1, 3:55pm
"All the rage" might be overly hyping it. Only 3 operational so far, all in Russia, one due to be shut down this year.
Cost is a big issue. Nuclear isn't cheap & NZ has abundant relatively cheap renewable.
Should also note, despite the many advantages of nuclear power, globally the appetite is fairly low. The world is quite shaken that a nuclear disaster could occur in a fairly modern plant in japan.
I recall roughly a decade ago, there was a design for a nuclear power plant that was close to being put into production. The group behind it was so confident about it's safety, and ability to survive two simultaneous failures that they published the designed for any interested people (mostly engineers) to review and poke holes in. Turns out the design had multiple serious failings identified in this public peer review.
harm_less,
Apr 1, 4:31pm
Another issue that adopting nuclear would result in is that a relatively large minimum sized installation would render a good proportion of our existing electricity generation infrastructure redundant. As most of the existing generation companies are under partially private ownership model the shareholders of these installations wouldn't be overly impressed.
There is also the problem of dealing with the very long term toxicity of nuclear generation's waste. The transportation of this waste from our globally isolated location presents both a health and security risk, though Australia has plenty of non-populated wasteland that could serve as a dumping ground. Perhaps we could do a contra deal on their '501s'; their waste in return for ours.
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