As-if, surely you speak in jest.? IF/ when that happens who is going to pay for road building/ repairs/ maintenance?
harm_less,
Nov 22, 8:36am
I'm more inclined to run the comparison using a Mazda 3 with 6.5L/100km consumption. Using a hybrid as a comparison blurs the true economy as it is obviously part electric but also liable to be charged RUCs once the government formulates a way of doing so to hybrids.
In our case the Leaf is charged from solar for the most part so our cost of charging is debatable. Export tariff price of 7c/kWh? Or an apportionment of the lifetime cost of a PV installation?
vtecintegra,
Nov 22, 10:00am
Plugin hybrids maybe but under the current system there is no reason RUCs should apply to a normal hybrid like the Yaris which derives all of its power from the petrol engine.
The shift to hybrids could happen extremely quickly here (like it has in the UK) so it absolutely makes sense to fcator them in to any cost comparisions.
gazzat22,
Nov 22, 10:38am
And not paying a cent to maintaining the roads you drive on!
kazbanz,
Nov 22, 4:27pm
I feel whatever road tax system is settled on needs to be totally consistent across the entire vehicle fleet. The concept of 'user pays" makes sense to me. It lines up pretty darn well with the gubbiment trying to push us onto to public and non powered transportation.
s_nz,
Nov 22, 10:55pm
I picked the cheapest to run (non pure electric) car on the road, to prove a point that Electric vehicles would loose their status as the cheapest to run cars on the road (and actually would be beating by some margin).
This means those commuting to the Auckland CBD from Orewa, looking for the cheapest to run car will be moving away from Electric vehicles.
I acknowledge that the leaf is substantially bigger than the yaris, but the economics don't change significantly if you swap the yaris hybrid out for a prius which is similar size to a leaf. (Or swapped the leaf for a Renault Zoe in the analysis).
I used a hybrid for the comparison as they are direct competitors with EV's for low running costs. I think of a non plug-in hybrid as just a cleaver trick to get better fuel economy out of petrol. All the energy is derived from petrol, so they aren't currently using the EV ruc exemption.
Regarding Solar, if you are running the analysis for yourself, and you would otherwise be exporting the power then using the export rate is fine. That is the marginal cost. But for the general public, using either a cheaper retail power price, or working out the entire life cost per kWh of a solar system would be appropriate.
The main issue slowing EV uptake is high capital cost of new vehicles (and limited selection of used vehicles - good if you want a leaf, not so much for anything other than a hatchback or short ranged small van). Low running costs makes this a little more viable. Take away the low running costs, and you are left with a vehicle that is expensive to buy and run.
s_nz,
Nov 22, 11:11pm
You could make the same argument for anything that is subsidized. People attending school don't pay a cent for education they receive!
The temporary EV RUC exemption is to encourage uptake of EV's, something our governments have decided is worth subsidizing. Frankly I agree with them, Electrifying transport is one of the easiest and cheapest ways to meet our countries commitments made under various climate accords. Alternatives are not so nice, We could half our dairy output and be way poorer as a country, or we could ban the sale of meat.
Politically National put in place the RUC exemption and is in favor of extending it.
Labour / Greens previously wanted to let the RUC exemption lapse, and introduce the feebate scheme to instead subsidies EV's at purchase time (much of the OECD does this), however they were blocked by NZ first.
Greens still want the feebate scheme, but labor quietly removed it from their policy for the last election. Unclear if this changes their stance on RUC's.
I think the point harm_less was trying to make is that they are quite willing to pay the $600 a year of RUC's when the temporary exemption ends.
However I find the re-introduction of RUC's at current rates to be quite a perverse incentive. An EV paying tipple the road tax of Yaris hybrid is clear distortion in the opposite direction as what we would want to see as a country. I would be fine to see the system shaken up in such a way that EV's and yaris hybrids come out paying the same.
cattleshed,
Nov 22, 11:44pm
"You could make the same argument for anything that is subsidized. People attending school don't pay a cent for education they receive! "
Not that I favour state education but under this system the children are NOT wage earners so of course THEY do not pay! Every taxpayer does. Your comment is riddled with holes. If you drive on the roads you pay and there should be no exceptions. A system whereby OTHERS pay your share is corrupt and akin to theft.
s_nz,
Nov 22, 11:58pm
As a country we have elected successive governments that have decided some things are worth encouraging through subsidies. Schooling, University study, healthcare, Pharmaceuticals, Legal Aid, Wages of employees of businesses that lost income through covid-19, Superannuation, first home buyers, encouraging the uptake of EV, etc.
With all these things, others pay your share, that is the nature of the subsidy. You are welcome to disagree if a particular item is worthy of being subsidies, but this is not corrupt. (corruption requires a dishonest element for personal gain)
tygertung,
Nov 23, 7:13am
What about a Suzuki Alto?
harm_less,
Nov 23, 9:05am
that would be a 1.2L buzz box that returns 4.8L/100km, 0r 5.3L/100km for the auto version. Significantly smaller and lesser performance than a Leaf so hardly a comparable car.
cattleshed,
Nov 23, 9:21am
That is a somewhat narrow view of corrupt. Nor does it come down to which govt. is elected and for how long since what is right may be on the side of the minority in any case. However, I was commenting on your statement regarding children getting a 'free' education and that this in no way justifies EV owner's receiving a subsidy. My point there is that the children do not pay because they are not in the workforce. The NZ tax system is way over the top and comes from a mistaken belief that everyone should be dependent on the state who must gather more and more revenue in more and more ways to pay for more and more things that its citizens ought to be paying for. What is happening and what you apparently think is good leads to the inevitable: a lack of responsibility and drive. Socialism wrecks countries.
gazzat22,
Nov 23, 10:53am
Capitalism does a very good job too.Which "system"caused the 2008 GFC, the Socialist Bankers on Wall St and London. ?
jesus2000,
Nov 23, 11:04am
That is 'crony capitalism' actually. Where you already have manipulation and interference with free market. Like artificially keeping interest rates low or bailing out the 'too big to fail'.
However the world is quickly moving to global socialism now for better or worse.
harm_less,
Nov 23, 11:10am
NZ's taxation is relatively benign compared to Australia where top tax rates and claw-backs on the likes of inheritances are brutal. Likewise the Scandinavian countries whose taxation is very high to enable levels of public services well beyond what we receive. NZ is far from a socialist country. You need to travel more.
tygertung,
Nov 23, 11:27am
Wow the engines have gotten big now. Maybe you'd be better off with a 1.2L swift then, same engine size, but a bit more room inside, although maybe a swift would be much heavier.
They used to be only 800cc, maybe we need to get back to the smaller cars for economy.
With all the crash protection built into cars now they need bigger engines to move all that extra weight around. I remember the Alto you are referring to, 3 cylinder 800cc micro car with all the crash protection of a baked bean can.
vtecintegra,
Nov 23, 11:52am
That's turbocharged though so has similar performance (and fuel economy) to an n/a 1.5l
cattleshed,
Nov 23, 12:01pm
It is not just income tax. Because of weak and liberal policy we put in speed humps instead of dealing properly with the ppl who do the damage. Speed humps are a mere example of the way in which ppl are taxed in NZ. Btw I was not comparing and this conversation relates to the foolishness and corrupt nature of giving EV owners a free ride for whatever length of time. Not far from Socialism at all. It permeates society.
tygertung,
Nov 23, 12:19pm
What about those free loading pedestrians, not paying anything to use the footpath?! The footpaths are a waste of time, should be dug up and turned into an extra lane for V8s!
bill-robinson,
Nov 23, 12:51pm
let the ev's stay road user charnges free. that way the roads will revert to goat tracks very quickly and we will need 4WD to get around. those will not get far as ev's. and the wind farms closing down as has already happened in merica and russia. 30 year life i gather, plus replacement blades when the wind gets up.
apollo11,
Nov 23, 1:53pm
Four wheel drives are probably going to benefit most from electrification. Four wheel drive, each wheel independently controlled, instant torque, no need for snorkels, quiet (good for hunters etc) low weight distribution - but need to sort out the issues with range.
harm_less,
Nov 23, 2:36pm
For starters: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/rivian/r1t/ "The 2021 Rivian R1T has four electric motors, one mounted at each wheel. Three batteries will be offered: 105-, 135- or 180 kWh. Depending on which battery you opt for, the R1T can have up to 750 hp and 829 lb-ft of torque. Rivian claims that on a single charge, the R1T can travel over 400 miles when equipped with the largest battery. The smaller battery options are expected to get around 230 to 300 miles in one charge." And Rivian's party trick: https://youtu.be/7BkxjHkOvYY
s_nz,
Nov 23, 3:16pm
Dictionary definitions of corrupt are narrow. For example Cambridge (adjective): "dishonestly using your position or power to get an advantage, especially for money"
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