Unless someone suggests otherwise, I expect that the bearings are probably stuffed - they don't come loose unless they're stuffed or someone has been tampering. So, if you just removed a shim, the problem will come back soon. Would you like me to upload the front suspension / diff section from the factory service manual, and post a link for you to download it!
mm12345,
Nov 1, 7:29am
It might if the kingpin bearings being stuffed are the reason for the camber being out, but it's not the way to fix it properly IMO.
It won't, the king pin bearing would have to be falling to bits for it to affect it.
mm12345,
Nov 1, 7:54am
Hmmmm - I wonder what a "wee bit of play" means. Yeah - I agree.
mechnificent,
Nov 1, 7:59am
Yeah, the bearings have to be pretty worn to give play and unless there is play they aren't going to affect the camber.
I'd just adjust the toe in to compensate. If that doesn't fix it, a new or second hand diff will probably. It's not the first diff I've heard of that was bent though, make sue a second hand one is in good order before you buy it.
mechnificent,
Nov 1, 7:59am
Yeah, the king-pin bearings have to be pretty worn to give play and unless there is play they aren't going to affect the camber.
I'd just adjust the toe in to compensate. If that doesn't fix it, a new or second hand diff will probably. It's not the first diff I've heard of that was bent though, make sure a second hand one is in good order before you buy it.
mechnificent,
Nov 1, 8:01am
And, removing a shim does do the job for quite a while if there is play. they are taper roller bearings, but they barely rotate at all. I've seen them rusted and buggered like you wouldn't believe, and they still held the wheel alignment.
mm12345,
Nov 1, 8:20am
I just did a quick guestimate, if my calculation is about right, then 1 degree of "slop" (ie of camber) equates to about 6 or 7mm sideways "wobble" at the tyre tread distance for a 31 inch tyre.Not what I'd call a "wee bit of play" the bearings would have to be completely rooted.I think the case is bent.
If you were going to adjust the toe-in to compensate - which way would you go!
shane191,
Nov 1, 8:35am
oh. the alignment people reckon the camber is out 2 degrees on left and 1 degree on right. think i might know why it had new tyres on it when we bought it.
shane191,
Nov 1, 8:36am
Thanks for this.
mechnificent,
Nov 1, 10:22am
How it works is this. you know how if you are rolling a trye across the yard, and you lean it one way, it rolls to that side. well that's what happens with the camber, so you toe in or out to get the tyre not rolling to either side. If it's leaning in at the top, you toe it out, if it's leaning out at the top, you toe it in.
kingfisher21,
Nov 1, 11:51am
And that will make it wear twice as fast as the tyre is now getting dragged sideways as well, toe WILL NOT compensate for excessive camber.
mechnificent,
Nov 1, 7:42pm
Oh really! Why do you suppose they have toe-in for!
mm12345,
Nov 1, 7:44pm
Been thinking about this. The amount of offset in this photo of the bearings looks like they actually would correct a degree or two of camber. http://safetsteer.com.au/portal/content/view/192/338/That (correcting camber from bent housings) is why they make them.I guess that the 10, 15, 20, and 25 is the amount of offset.If that 25 is say 2.5mm offset, then at the spacing between kingpins (which I'm guessing - I didn't go and measure it), my quick calculation says that will possibly correct about 2 degrees. I'd read somewhere that if you used offset bearings, then you end up with leaky inner diff seals, as they'll shift the centre point of the axle.But I don't think that's right, as the CV pivot point is in line with the kingpins, and you're using offset bearing shells put in the opposite way top and bottom- so if the case wasn't leaking before, I don't see why it should afterwards, as you're not changing the centre point of anything.It's easy to munt the seal when sliding the axle in and/or zephyrheaven's suggestion that OEM seals are much better than cheap aftermarket ones might be why some people have problems. I suggest shane191 registers at http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/ and takes a scan of the alignment report, and posts it in the Aussie Patrol Y60/GQ forum and Safari forum, and asks for advice as to whether offset kingpin bearings will be able to correct it. A supplier should be able to tell him what amount of offset is needed - if it can be done.Offroad express (kiwi forum) as well perhaps, but there's constant reference to alignment/steering issues in the aussie forums, they make the things over there and some of makers of suspension mod parts etc are active in the forums over there.Doesn't cost anything to ask.
mm12345,
Nov 1, 7:44pm
Been thinking about this. The amount of offset in this photo of the bearings looks like they actually would correct a degree or two of camber. http://safetsteer.com.au/portal/content/view/192/338/That (correcting camber from bent housings) is why they make them (or to put in with offset the other way to correct castor).I guess that the 10, 15, 20, and 25 is the amount of offset.If that 25 is say 2.5mm offset, then at the spacing between kingpins (which I'm guessing - I didn't go and measure it), my quick calculation says that will possibly correct about 2 degrees. I'd read somewhere that if you used offset bearings, then you end up with leaky inner diff seals, as they'll shift the centre point of the axle.But I don't think that's right, as the CV pivot point is in line with the kingpins, and you're using offset bearing shells put in the opposite way top and bottom- so if the case wasn't leaking before, I don't see why it should afterwards, as you're not changing the centre point of anything.It's easy to munt the seal when sliding the axle in and/or zephyrheaven's suggestion that OEM seals are much better than cheap aftermarket ones might be why some people have problems. I suggest shane191 registers at http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/ and takes a scan of the alignment report, and posts it in the Aussie Patrol Y60/GQ forum and Safari forum, and asks for advice as to whether offset kingpin bearings will be able to correct it. A supplier should be able to tell him what amount of offset is needed - if it can be done.Offroad express (kiwi forum) as well perhaps, but there's constant reference to alignment/steering issues in the aussie forums, they make the things over there and some of makers of suspension mod parts etc are active in the forums over there.Doesn't cost anything to ask.
kingfisher21,
Nov 2, 1:11am
Not everything has toe in, fact of it is, whatever the factory recommends for toe, when you are driving down the road the forces acting on the wheel make it end up at zero toe, you are another ill informed one who thinks that altering something will mask the real problem, in this case that definatly doesn't work. This particular vehicle needs a new front housing period. You already have a tyre at an angle, giving it more toe to "compensate" will drag the tyre down the road surface even worse. Giving a vehicle toe in or out has nothing to do with camber.
mechnificent,
Nov 2, 1:16am
Lol. Fisher, I agree that a new housing is what needed, but if he doesn't want to do that, he might be able to compensate enough that the tyre wear will not outweigh the cost of a new diff housing.
And you should really swat up on wheel alignment and what all the angles are there for.
kingfisher21,
Nov 2, 1:32am
What do you do for a living! I do wheel alignments and teach other operators, have done for 20 years, I could go into more detail but the way I put was to try and keep it simple.
mechnificent,
Nov 2, 2:15am
I'm a mechanic, and have been for forty-two years.
So you would know that toe in is to counter the effects of camber. And that camber and king-pin inclination are to lighten the steering, and stop the scrubbing effect.
So what's your problem! If he adjusts the toe in a little, then ties it and monitors the results, he will probably get the tyres not wearing as bad after a couple of tutus.
mechnificent,
Nov 2, 2:15am
I'm a mechanic, and have been for forty-two years.
"Giving a vehicle toe in or out has nothing to do with camber.". Really Kingfisher!
So you would know that toe in is to counter the effects of camber. And that camber and king-pin inclination are to lighten the steering, and stop the scrubbing effect.
So what's your problem! If he adjusts the toe in a little, then tries it and monitors the results, he will probably get the tyres not wearing as bad after a couple of tutus.
mm12345,
Nov 2, 2:23am
It may not need a new housing - if offset kingpin bearing shells are able to rotate the hub position back within spec.Spec is for 0-1 deg camber, the OP mentioned it was 1% "out" RH side, and 2 deg "out" LH side.Even if that means it's 3 deg (total) out on the LH side, he should be able to squeak in with offset bearings - which will be much cheaper than a new housing.
The Safari toe-in spec is 1-2mm.My experience with this is that when it's out of whack - usually after you've bottomed out the rear drag-link on the ground when the wheels are in ruts, so bent the bar slightly, then the steering gets really "wandery" at speed.Set with 0 deg toe-in, or toe-out, and they're dangerous to drive.If there's a problem with the panhard rod bushes, then only a tiny bit of movement - hard to detect - in the bushes translates into a large movement of toe-in/out movement, and it's a total waste of time setting the toe-in until the bushes are replaced.This, apart from unbalanced (or un-round) wheels, is why almost every Safari I've driven has steering shimmy at about 85-90km/h.Easily and cheaply fixed.Alignment shop never picked it up on mine - and charged me $80 to set the toe-in, which was out again of course as soon as I drove it down the road.I just set it myself these days - easy (and cheap).
mm12345,
Nov 2, 2:23am
It may not need a new housing - if offset kingpin bearing shells are able to rotate the hub position back within spec.Spec is for 0-1 deg camber, the OP mentioned it was 1 deg "out" RH side, and 2 deg "out" LH side.Even if that means it's 3 deg (total) on the LH side, he should be able to squeak in back under 1 deg with offset bearings - which will be much cheaper than a new housing.
The Safari toe-in spec is 1-2mm.My experience with this is that when it's out of whack - usually after you've bottomed out the rear drag-link on the ground when the wheels are in ruts, so bent the bar slightly, then the steering gets really "wandery" at speed.Set with 0 deg toe-in, or toe-out, and they're dangerous to drive.If there's a problem with the panhard rod bushes, then only a tiny bit of movement - hard to detect - in the bushes translates into a large movement of toe-in/out movement, and it's a total waste of time setting the toe-in until the bushes are replaced.This, apart from unbalanced (or un-round) wheels, is why almost every Safari I've driven has steering shimmy at about 85-90km/h.Easily and cheaply fixed.Alignment shop never picked it up on mine - and charged me $80 to set the toe-in, which was out again of course as soon as I drove it down the road.I just set it myself these days - easy (and cheap).
mechnificent,
Nov 2, 2:34am
"I just set it myself these days - easy (and cheap).".
Exactly. People in the country are forever hitting things and putting their alignment out, we can't afford to be running to the wheel alignment duffas that doesn't even know what the angles are there for, to have him take a guess about what to do.
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