A potentially HUGE balls-up for those owning a vehicle with relatively subtle change/s since new (for example, a larger engine OR manual gearbox-instead of it's factory automatic- to what it was factory fitted with (but still available in that model car when new, and all fitted using factory parts and fittings), or, say, brakes, anti-sway bar/s, etc, etc, that are different/later model/higher spec/factory option for the same model vehicle -and EVEN if, in effect, it's an upgrade/improvement to safety/handling, stopping, and fitted professionally, and didn't involve any welding/cutting, etc), is that while no one along the LVV and WOF may pick up on them, and therefor your vehicle is technically on the road completely legally in that sense, is potentially having a possibly extremely expensive insurance claim declined (imagine you're in a crash with a late model Porsche, there could EASILY be tens of thousands of dollars-or more- at stake) (because given how much detective work insurance companies sometimes do before honouring claims these days-indeed they employ people specifically as 'detectives' looking for technicalities to use as loopholes, esp with older/unusual cars/situations) (man, you should've seen the finetooth comb they put my friend's car through) (an unremarkable factory stock 6 cyl auto 4-door xc Falcon on s and still with it's original paint and hubcaps, in an unremarkable crash, and him in his 40s with a clean driving and insurance record), the insurance company could point to where you signed the policy stating that the car has no modifications (and this would be compounded if they could show that you know your way around a car/are an enthusiast of that model (and therefore would/should know that it wasn't 'factory' -esp seeing as they, themselves were able to establish/discover that fact). I'm sure that a lot reading this will think "that won't/wouldn't happen", however that would be naive/foolish these days, esp seeing as you have and pay insurance for the peace-of-mind that you wouldn't be paying off that Porsche for the rest of your days, should that happen-and it very easily could.
gmphil,
Mar 30, 4:56pm
march 1991
extrayda,
Mar 31, 12:37am
If it was me I would get it certed anyway. If it's such a minor change with factory parts it should fly through. I certed and HQ with 350 Chev (already had been getting WOF's with the 350). The only things that I had to do were a heat shield for the brake booster (near headers) and a few other things. All of which made sense, and should have been done anyway. Mostly worth doing for insurance reasons, and ads to resale value also.
tamarillo,
Mar 31, 12:41am
Mini van, 1275, discs. Sound very nice. Any other mods to running gear, nice exhaust, big carb? Will you keep body original and have a sleeper? Fake worn post office sign maybe?
ally-oop,
Mar 31, 1:00am
I fully get your point, and a good one it is too, however, sometimes there's the situation where resale isn't a consideration as you'll keep the vehicle forever, and certification would be fine, other than the relatively new and large cert plate being the only thing detracting from the otherwise entirely virginal and nicely many decades-aged engine bay like a brand new tooth (I realise that may sound pedantic, but it's REALLY important to some).
extrayda,
Mar 31, 2:47am
Yep, I don't like the cert plates much. They are rather HUGE. You would think that a system like the old declaration papers would be sufficient. Tie them in with the chassis code / rego, so if they get lost they can be replaced. When going for WOF / providing info for insurance just have them available. Easy. Non messy. No ugly cert plate.
extrayda,
Mar 31, 2:53am
Would be curious to know what would happen if the insurance company tried to decline a claim based on a modification the owner did not know about. Ages ago (even before declarations) we replaced the 998cc (something like that) engine in my fathers starlet with the big block 1166 3K motor. To the uninitiated it still just looks like a small 4 cylinder, and they were also a factory option, but did not come with that car. The new owner may quite possibly not be aware of the change (assuming the car still exists).
ally-oop,
Mar 31, 3:07am
Good points, and yep, it'd be very interesting-the concern that I have is that they'd be looking their hardest (and keenest to be brash) about a big claim-right when you need the insurance most. It'd also be very interesting, if they declined such a claim on such grounds, to see how quickly they'd return the money that you'd paid them over the years, seeing as they were apparently never gonna pay a clam of yours, therefore they weren't actually covering during that period.
extrayda,
Mar 31, 3:32am
I don't know of any cases, but then I've never looked either. Another example would be a Ford with a 302c block with 351c Crank and Rods. Now a 351, but no way to tell externally and still the original motor. I wonder how much effort the Insurance companies go to and what they would be allowed to do. I would hope at least that they would have to prove that you knew before denying a claim.
mrfxit,
Mar 31, 3:41am
Yep thats the point I have been making in a few threads like this. Mostly ignored.
ally-oop,
Mar 31, 4:41am
Further good points mate.
ally-oop,
Mar 31, 4:44am
You're a very wise man-if I do say so myself-great minds think alike?. I must go and have a look and a perusal of your threads.
ally-oop,
Mar 31, 4:50am
Well, I searched under your username, and my word you're prolific!, I'll filter through them for insurance-related ones, this could take some time.
tony9,
Jul 3, 3:58am
I see a number of older (pre 1975 for example) cars for sale here that have non-standard engines and other changes that would normally require LVV Certification, but they don't appear to have a plate or whatever.
An example is a 1967 Mini with a1275 engine.
Are there exemptions for older vehicles?
I am rebuilding an older Mini, and would like to use a later bigger motor but don't want the cost and hassle of certification.
lissa25,
Jul 3, 4:01am
I'm a mini club member and have seen loads of uncerted minis with alternate mini engines, don't know if it's legal but they don't have problems getting wofs. They run into problems with non mini alterations but never seen a problem if its factory mini parts from another year eg 1100 - 1275
fordcrzy,
Jul 3, 4:02am
can anyone really tel the difference between a 998 and 1275cc engine anyway these days? chuck it in, make it look stock.
lissa25,
Jul 3, 4:04am
Have seen 1275 with cooper disc brakes and master cylinder all retrofitted into an original 850 without wof issues
tony9,
Jul 3, 4:09am
My car will need vinning and re-registration. I have all the original rego documents which clearly show 850cc. Do you really think VTNZ are going to fail to notice an A+ 1275 engine and disk brakes on a 1967 850 Van?
lissa25,
Jul 3, 4:18am
I don't know, may not be an issue as it is factory mini into factory mini, I do know it is done a lot, almost all vans I have seen are 1275 or bigger, disc brake setup but none were factory, unsure if they had to do re vin.
fordcrzy,
Jul 3, 4:26am
if it needs re-vinning then i think it gets certed as part of the re-vin process? just put the new motor size on the new vin/rego application.
smac,
Jul 3, 4:30am
The reason so many (and you're right, it's a lot) get a WoF no problem is simply because your average inspector doesn't know what was or wasn't standard fitment.
However in saying that, my guess is that it's likely to get questioned at the point you get the pre-reg check done, because they will be looking at it more closely ( don't mean mechanically, I just mean they will take more time/notice of what they're doing). At a testing station pre-reg you're more likely to encounter a crusty ol' ex-BMC mechanic who knows damn well 850's never had discs, or big bore etc.
If all you are doing is putting an A series in ,and mini discs on, then it'll get certed no problem anyway. If $400 is a barrier to you putting a mini van back on the road you've picked the wrong vehicle.
lissa25,
Jul 3, 4:36am
That sounds right to me smac, my original 998 now has 1167 with 7.5" discs, but because it is the standard sedan the testing station doesn't have a problem as there was so many factory variations and all my parts are factory mini. Definately recommend disc brakes, mine has gone from scary to predictable.
safteystv,
Jul 3, 5:43am
as for the engine, if it the same block family and no greater than 25% increase in power no need for cert, vtec engine in to mini needs cert , , addition of turbo or super charger cert needed.
esprit,
Jul 3, 6:07am
If a car was modified years and years ago it doesn't need a cert. only if it gets revinned does it need one
franc123,
Jul 3, 6:21am
Wrong, the fitment of ANY engine that is of larger capacity its original is grounds for certification, and the fitment of a disc front end to replace a drum one certainly is. But of course it takes a trained eye in these things to pick it up, to me either of these things are stinkingly.obvious from the engine and casting numbers and the fact that disc fronts were effectively only fitted to Cooper and 1275GT in NZ, they were not standard on UK market standard Minis until 1984 which was of course about two years after NZMC assembly and local sales stopped.
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